Does anyone have a list of the tunnels abandoned on the Rathole when the rebuild occured back in the early sixties? More specifically which ones are still there, forgotten over the years?
Here are the links to four articles about the "Rathole" from Southern Railroad's Ties Magzaine:
http://southern.railfan.net/ties/1963/63-8/limits.html
http://southern.railfan.net/ties/1963/63-8/daylight.html
http://southern.railfan.net/ties/1962/62-8/cno.html
http://southern.railfan.net/ties/1961/61-12/break.html
As for the current status of the tunnels, here is what I know:
# 1 is still open, but has a lot of roof fall-it's on private land.
# 2 is still open, but has water standing in the north end-it's accessable from the Kings Mountain cut.
# 3 is still open, but the area is posted.
# 4 is still open, and accessable from the lake, if you don't mind the climb.
# 5 is probably still there, but I haven't found it.
# 6 was daylighted, and I haven't been able to ID the exact location.
# 7, # 8, & # 9 are still open, and there is a rails-to-trails proposal for that section of the old line.
# 10 was another daylighted tunnel-I don't know the exact location.
# 11 & # 12 were by-passed, but I haven't tried to find them yet.
Maybe someone else can fill in the gaps, and address the Tennessee tunnels.
Hope this helps,
ba
#1 is just South of Wilmore. I "think" I know about where it is (goes under highway 29??).
#2 at Kings Mountain is still in decent shape. Been a few years since I walked through it though. There was a large amount of water pooled at the North end last time I was down there, but it was open all the way through. It has a concrete pad in the floor that made walking easy (except for the mud). One interesting note on this one was the ventalation shaft in the middle. Its still intact, including a giant fan that was still in place last time I was there.
#3 is near the present day CP at Grove, just North of Burnside, off of highway 1247 (where the old Cooper power plant spur comes off the mainline. Its located on goverment land, and fairly accesable. There was a lot of roof fall the last time I was in there, but still in decent shape. You have to drive the old RofW to get to it.
#4 is the one in the famous picture of the EMD FT units crossing Cumberland river. To reach it, you have to walk Through #3 and on South on the old RofW about a half mile. you used to be able to walk through it and stand on the old bridge adbutment overlooking the lake.
#5 was at Sloans Valley (I think thats the one) and is located just North of a trail head on the old RofW. I have hiked into the South end of it, but it was muddy and I was not able to get any further. There is a sign off of US 27 that points to the trail.. there is website for the trail, found at http://www.kyrailtrail.org/projects/cathy-crockett.php
Id love to hike the trail on south of that point, but have yet to do it, and I dont know how much is open . Im not sure about the locations of 6, 7, 8, 9 either, but one of those opened into the valley at Alpine.
#11 is at Parkers Lake, just off US 27. When the road was relocated several years ago, the North portal was covered with fill, but the South portal remains intact. I have hiked to this one back before the road project, and it was in great shape, including keystones at both ends with "CSRY #11" and the date carved into the stone. This is just South of the CP at Cumberland falls on the mainline.
#12 was somehwere near KD tower, but I have never been able to find it. Lots of dense growth on the old RofW around there.
Im not clear on numbers or locations of most of the tunnels on South of there. There is one near Robbins TN that is still intact but full of Water, and anouther near Sunbright.
#21 is near CW Tower, North of Nemo TN. #22 and 23 are at Nemo proper. You can hike through 22 and drive through 23. I have slides of a lot of this stuff, If I can ever dig them out of the archives..
Don't forget the tunnels on the old right of way that went down the the old New River bridge. They looked liked they may have been orginally by-passed in the 1910s?
#16 is the one near Sunbright and is difficult to drive through. There is also one to the west of the double track at Anadel. The north portal is far down an embankment and inaccessable. The south portal is caved in and requires a hike through the woods. You can hike to the north portal at Robbins, but last time I did that, it was about like walking through a swamp. You can stand over the top of the south portal at Robbins where the road goes over, but you are correct about it being flooded below. It was my understanding that it was the longest tunnel on the railroad.
Joel mentioned the tunnel on the old mainline near New RIver, TN. It is located along a portion of the old CS mainline that comes off the present day main just North of the present day New River Bridge, just South of Hellenwood TN. Part of the old main is still intact (used to be operated as the New River Railroad to serve a tipple) down towards the old New river Bridge (which is still partialy standing) The old mainline has been reloacted at least once to bypass this tunnel, and I am not sure of the bore date or tunnel number (if it even had one) Its fairly short, brick lined, and just looks a lot older than the other abandoned tunnels in the area. Both portals have collapsed and there is a fair amount of roof fall.
Here is a photo taken in January of this year, showing the North Portal
(http://www.jreb.org/Image/EMBpics/vintage/newrivertunnel1.jpg)
And here is a detail shot, showing the brick arch and lining, and how it was inserted into the rock face.
(http://www.jreb.org/Image/EMBpics/vintage/newrivertunnel2.jpg)
I have been looking through my older slides tryng to find shots of some of the other tunnels I have found, but this is all I have found so far. The North portal of CS tunnel 23 at Nemo TN.
(http://www.jreb.org/Image/EMBpics/vintage/EBtrucknemotn.jpg)
About 1/4 mile or so south of that tunnel near New River is one that has a creek going through it. From what we can tell, this one was bored to divert the stream away from the fill that the track is built on, almost like how Southern diverted the course of the Emory River.
(http://www.cmherndon.com/galleries/relics/cnotp/photos/creektunnel.jpg)
I had almost forgot about that one Caleb. When a group of us first explored that area back in the mid 90's, we had much debate as to the origins and use of that tunnel in your pic. It is much to narrow to have ever handled rail trafiic, but I cant figure out why it was bored so tall just to handle water....its a mystery to me.
The stream there looks like it used to flow down the valley in the exact place the old mainline is now, but it diverts through that tunnel, through that rock outcropping and into another stream bed on the West side...pretty nifty..
Many moons ago I went out on Lake Cumberland (Cumberland River) and the water level was pretty low. There was an old RR tunnel with "Somerset 1903" written on it. It appeared to be concrete and in pretty decent shape.
We were about 1 mile west from the 27 bridge and I am curious were the other end of that tunnel is.
That sounds like the old US 27 highway tunnel. Before the lake was impounded, the highway dropped down near the river below Pitman Creek, followed the river, crossed Pitman Creek, and then went through a short tunnel before crossing the Cumberland River and entering old Burnside (under the current Burnside Marina). If you have been on the lake recently, the point below the new bridge for 90 where the equipment is loaded on barges, is where the old 27 came down.
Butch is correct. The old US 27 tunnel is West of the Railraod tunnel (and a lot higher up the ridge) than the CS tunnel. The RR tunnel has a basic rock portal, and is almost at normal lake level most of the time.
I had a thought last night about the Two tunnels there at Burnside . When they built the new US 27 bridge over the lake, they relocated and widened the road a bit. With all the blasting that was done (some right over where the North tunnel goes under 27) I just wonder how much damgage was done to the tunnels. Now that it is cooling off and the snakes are hiding for the winter, I just might have to go for a hike soon down there..
I'd love to see some pics of the current state of the Cumberland River tunnels; I always loved the shots popping out of the tunnel and going over the bridge. Emmett, did I read corrently that some of the pillars are still in place?
Here are a few shots of the old CNOTP tunnels from this summer (some better than others):
The old concrete support for the bridge exiting Tunnel 4:
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref/Tunnel_4_S_wide.JPG)
The south portal of Tunnel 4:
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref/Tunnel_4_S6.JPG)
Inside the south portal of Tunnel 4:
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref/Tunnel_4_S9.JPG)
The north portal of Tunnel 3:
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref/Tunnel_3_N1.JPG)
and some others just for fun...
The north portal of Tunnel 1:
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref/Tunnel_1_N23.JPG)
The north portal of Tunnel 2:
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref/Tunnel_2_N18.JPG)
The south portal of Tunnel 7:
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref/Tunnel_7_S5.JPG)
The north portal of Tunnel 8:
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref/Tunnel_8_N2.JPG)
And the old US 27 tunnel, looking towards the marina:
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref/Highway_Tunnel_S1.JPG)
Enjoy!
ba
Groovy shots Butch! Looks like about the only changes to the Two around Burnside is the amount of trees and growth. Thats the first picture of #1 I have ever seen...and judging by the land around it, its not where I thought it was.
To answer SR6482's question. The Adbutments on both ends of the old Cumberland River Bridge are still intact, but I have never seen, and Highly doubt, that the piers are still in the lake. The water level gets to low in that area for them to have remained. I have hiked down (and I mean DOWN) to the South end of the old bridge, which is near the burnside marina, but not much remains except for the concrete. when you stand at the south end and sight across the lake to the tunnel, you realize just how much of a curve that bridge had on it.
off topic a bit, but the shots of the US 27 tunnel sent me searching. here is a shot of the old 27 bridge over the Cumberland River. The Highway tunnel is on the left. Notice the dark structre behind the road bridge..thats the CNO&TP bridge. North is to the Left, South to the Right. Bet the road bridge would have been a dandy place to shoot trains :)
(http://jreb.org/Image/EMBpics/vintage/burnside1.jpg)
looking North across the river
(http://jreb.org/Image/EMBpics/vintage/burnside2.jpg)
On the South side of the river, looking North. The Railroad runs along the bluff in front of you. The old buildings down to the left of the Bridge is the site of old Burnside, now the general location of Burnside Marina. Triva Question.. The CNO&TP was not the only Railroad in Burnside at this time...can anyone name the other one??
(http://jreb.org/Image/EMBpics/vintage/burnside3.jpg)
Emmett,
Very cool pix! I have a diagram of the the short track you mentioned that connected the CNOTP to the docks on the river, but I can't remember the name of it.
Here are three pictures of pictures of the Tunnel 4 RR bridge that were used in a 1909 engineering thesis at UK. My question back to you is do you what was the device over the tracks in the middle of the bridge was called?
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref/T_4_bridge.JPG)
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref/Burnside_bridge_1.JPG)
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref/Burnside_bridge_2.JPG)
And the famous 1941 pic from that was used on the first cover (March 1947) of Ties Magazine, the 30th Anniversary cover (March-April 1977) of Ties, and was the center photo in the final issue of Ties (March-April 1982).
The scan is of the 1982 center photo. Here is the information about the photo from the 1947 issue:
The world's first Diesel-electric road- freight locomotive - Southern 6100 - is shown crossing the Cumberland River Bridge near Burnside, Kentucky. The photograph was taken by M. H. Linn, then a lieutenant, Special Services and Freight Claims Department, who is now Superintendent, Executive Office Building, in Washington.
Taken on September 19, 1941, the photograph was soon recognized by experts as one of the outstanding railroad pictures of all time. It has appeared on the covers and inside pages of nationally circulated magazines and in newspapers.
Charles F. Denny, the fireman shown waving from the cab window, was the son of C. F. Denny, night chief dispatcher on the CNO&TP at Somerset, Kentucky. He joined The United States Marine Corps on May 6, 1944, and was killed in action on Okinawa, June 13, 1945.
(http://southern.railfan.net/ties/1982/82-3/center.jpg)
ba
Okay, I'm a bit confused Emmett. Earlier in this thread, you show a pic of your truck going thru, what you refer to as, old tunnel 23.
It was my understanding that this is new 24:
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=78984
...and this is current tunnel 23:
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=47607
...and in order to access tunnel 23, you need to drive thru old 24. Am I correct with this so far? The reason for my confusion is that I swore I saw a "24" on the keystone over old 24 (i.e. the road access tunnel).
What drove the jist of Jonathan's original post of tunnel #'s was when we found an old portal in the east rock cut about 100 yards south from the bridge in my second picture link. Was this a rail tunnel, or the drainage tunnel that you and Caleb were referring to?
Now totally confused :?: :shock: :?:
Butch,
I know i read somewhere or was told that the original tunnels ceilings were not brick or concrete. Part of the lease agreement with the city of Cincinnati was they to be bricked or concreted. I notice in some of your pictures they are just rock cut. Do you know anything about this agreement?
Junior
Junior,
According to the article "90 Years to Daylight" in the August 1963 issue of Ties Magazine - available on Tom Daspit's website at http://southern.railfan.net/ties/1963/63-8/daylight.html - six tunnels including 3 & 4 did not require lining. The article doesn't identify the other four.
Actually, the entire website is a treat if you like the history of the Southern (CNO&TP) RR.
ba
The article that you referred to, Butch, has cleared up a bit of confusion (I think) -
- The tunnel that I referred to as current 23 (the southern portal lets out onto a bridge over the Emory River) is actually 22;
- The bore in the side of the cut just south of 22 is old 23;
- 24 is 24.
Does that sound correct??? :( :?:
QuoteThe CNO&TP was not the only Railroad in Burnside at this time...can anyone name the other one??
Lexington & Ohio.
To Answer Butch, the device you asked about is called a "Tell-Tale". Basicly just some heavy strips of roap or leather that dangled down across the tops of trains, used to warn the brakemen that a clearence issue was near. If they where riding the tops of the cars, and felt that "tell the tale" of an approaching bridge or tunnel, they would hit the deck. Im sure those things have saved a lot of lives. There should have been once located on each side of every tunnel and bridge.
Mark W said "- The tunnel that I referred to as current 23 (the southern portal lets out onto a bridge over the Emory River) is actually 22;
- The bore in the side of the cut just south of 22 is old 23;
- 24 is 24"
Thats correct. that article did help to clear that up.
The other railroad in Burnside was the Cincinnati, Burnside and Cumberland River Railway (CB&CRRY). Incorprated May, 1890 to provide a link from the CNO&TP mainline to the docks along the banks of the river in Burnside. It possesed 2.7 mile of trackage, and was a subsidiary of the Southern Railway after August of 1905. When the CNO&TP was forced to relocate due to the flooding of Lake cumberland, the CB&CRRY was abandoned....last operations occured in May, 1950.
To RU...there have been Two Lexington and Ohio Railroads in Kentucky, but neither of them anywhere near the location we hafve been discussing.
Emmett-I figured you would get the tell-tales.
Here is another Ties pic that shows the 1963 re-routes that may help clarify the tunnel 22-23-24 discussion (the Nemo section).
(http://southern.railfan.net/ties/1961/61-12/break1.jpg)
And here is another pic of a pic that shows the tracks in Burnside in 1950. This is from Ghost Railroads of Kentucky.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref/P7190007.JPG)
ba
Thanks for the clarifications, Butch and Emmett. Those new maps helped. Looks like I'm going to be doing some more exploring the next time we get up to Nemo...
:) :) :)
This is an informative thread, thanks for all the good information.
Here are a few pictures that might help visually down at old Burnside.
First pic seems to have been taken on the top of the cliff over US 27 on the north side of the river looking south. US 27 can plainly be seen directly below the photographer with old Burnside Yard basically in the middle of the picture. Toward the top right of the picture you can make out the CNO&TP mainline of the day and follow it to the left side of the picture, just before the trussle over the river. Of course in the middle bottom is the Burnside Ferry.
(http://www.jreb.org/Image/RDM/burnside1.jpg)
The second is a zoom in of the Burnside Yard. Unfortunately the quality is not real great, but you can see a steam engine, a Southern 0-6-0 switcher in the 1500 series.
(http://www.jreb.org/Image/RDM/burnside2.jpg)
The third pic is from the North/East cliff looking at the new CNO&TP bridge over the river with the old RR bridge in the background and the Burnside yard over the hill beyond the old RR bridge. As you can see, US 27 and its bridge had not even been started when this picture was taken.
(http://www.jreb.org/Image/RDM/burnside3.jpg)
I hope you enjoy these and maybe they will help you visualize the layout from before and after the relocations. I have a few more pictures I might try and get posted later, if there is interest. Mainly pictures of the construction of the new RR bridge, which is kind of off topic since this thread is about abandonded rathole tunnels.
Randy,
Great pics! And they are not that far off-topic since they concern a re-route of the Rathole. But either way, I would be interested in seeing your other photos.
ba
I LOVE seeing these pictures!!!! Please-any CNO&TP pics you have---post them. The one with the construction of the bridge really puts things into perspective!
Something is wrong with that map. Last time I was out on the CS, Lancing was north of Nemo. Has someone moved it?
I found some older stuff (not burnside) while digging through the archives working on the JREB photo gallery.
Here is the South portal of Kings Mountain tunnel back in 2002. You really cant get these shots now, as the portal is covered by a lot more foilage.
(http://jreb.org/v-web/gallery/albums/album28/KingsMTtunnel_021502.jpg)
(http://jreb.org/v-web/gallery/albums/album28/KingsMTtunnel1_021502.jpg)
(http://jreb.org/v-web/gallery/albums/album28/NS229KIngsMTKY_021502.jpg)
KInda OT, but maybe not...
Ch 56 and 27 news (Lexington KY) reporting today that the Wolf Creek Dam (which holds back Lake Cumberland) is suffering from some rather severe leak (seepage in offical terms). The Army Corps of Engineers are taking steps to begin a project to correct this, and say that it is not a danger at this time (although the news says that they are placing new warning sirens downstream of the dam just in case) The project could take as much as 7 years to complete.
I went searching for more info on the net, and found the ACE plans, which outline the project. They say that normal lake levels will be maintianed if possable during the summer, but will be reduced December of 2005 to March of 2006. Further more, they will be dropping lake levels even lower in 2007 when the main phase of the project begins. Looks like we just might be able to get a better peak of whats left of old Burnside in the near future. Makes you wonder just what is left of the old RR and other stuff down there...we may soon see.
The website with more info is http://www.lrn.usace.army.mil/pao/issues/WOLcommo/index.htm
Quote from: "E.M. Bell"KInda OT, but maybe not...
Ch 56 and 27 news (Lexington KY) reporting today that the Wolf Creek Dam (which holds back Lake Cumberland) is suffering from some rather severe leak (seepage in offical terms). The Army Corps of Engineers are taking steps to begin a project to correct this, and say that it is not a danger at this time (although the news says that they are placing new warning sirens downstream of the dam just in case) The project could take as much as 7 years to complete.
I went searching for more info on the net, and found the ACE plans, which outline the project. They say that normal lake levels will be maintianed if possable during the summer, but will be reduced December of 2005 to March of 2006. Further more, they will be dropping lake levels even lower in 2007 when the main phase of the project begins. Looks like we just might be able to get a better peak of whats left of old Burnside in the near future. Makes you wonder just what is left of the old RR and other stuff down there...we may soon see.
The website with more info is http://www.lrn.usace.army.mil/pao/issues/WOLcommo/index.htm
Well that could be interesting..........or scary.
Wonder if they will find any of those 300 pound catfish? :lol:
I was talking to GW and RFJ this weekend, and Robert reports that the lake level is down a lot more than usual. Supposedly parts of old Burnside are starting to be uncovered slowly but surely. Might have to plan a trip down that way to do some snooping sometime soon.
Seeing as how this thread is now the largest we have on the board, I moved it to where it should have been. Now for the updates..
I spent the day today (01/07/06) out with Butch and Caleb exploring tunnels 7, 8, and 9. Look for a new thread with lots of pics in a day or two for that. Part of our afternoon was spend exploring old Burnside now that the lake is down. Basicly, there is very little left of Old Burnside except for a few foundations. A local we spoke with told us that the Corps of Engineers basicly bulldozed and burned every structure. there was no sign of the yard tracks we talked about in a post above. The only thing even close to being part of the old RR was a couple of old bridge timbers... nothing more.
It was still neat to see what we did...stuff that has been under water for decades. Here are a few pics..im sure caleb and butch will have more.
Part of old highway US 27, looking Northwest towards Burnside. The CNO&TP old mainline was on the hillside to the right, and the lead to the old Burnside yard tracks came down near the edge of the lakebed on the right.
(http://jreb.org/v-web/gallery/albums/oldburnside/burnside1_010706.sized.jpg)
Small bridge over what used to be a creek on old US 27, Burnside Ky. This is normaly under the waters of Lake Cumberland.
(http://jreb.org/v-web/gallery/albums/oldburnside/burnside2_010706.sized.jpg)
Remains of a small service station along old US 27 at Burnside Ky. Notice the concrete oval for the gas pumps to the right, and the foundation of the small building.
(http://jreb.org/v-web/gallery/albums/oldburnside/burnside3_010706.sized.jpg)
Caleb and Butch stand on the remains of a sidewalk in old Burside Ky. This area is now occupied by the Burnside Marina
(http://jreb.org/v-web/gallery/albums/oldburnside/burnside4_010706.sized.jpg)
The old US 27 tunnel at Burnside
(http://jreb.org/v-web/gallery/albums/oldburnside/burnside5_010706.sized.jpg)
Quote from: "E.M. Bell"m sure caleb and butch will have more.
Well, I thought I had lost all of my photos, but was able to recover them the other day. I put together a few pages this morning. The new "Relics" section covers both the CNO&TP and Old Burnside and can be viewed by clicking the link below.
http://www.cmherndon.com/galleries/relics
I also have a few new additions to my CNO&TP Tunnels page.
http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref/index.html
ba
While searching for some photos of the old alignment, I came across a few shots of the Burnside bridge in 1950, 1951, and 1952. The first photo is from the Sept. 1950 issue of Ties and shows the northbound Royal Palm crossing the bridge shortly after it opened.
(http://southern.railfan.net/ties/1950/50-9/cover.jpg)
We can honestly say that it was the first time that anyone had ever shot that angle before.
The 2nd photo is from 1951 and was on the cover of the Oct. 1951 issue of Ties. This one also shows a northbound crossing the bridge. Things sure have changed since then...
(http://southern.railfan.net/ties/1951/51-10/cover.jpg)
The last one I came across was the southbound Royal Palm. It looks like the shot was taken from the road that crosses under 27 at the south bank of the river.
(http://southern.railfan.net/ties/1952/52-5/cover.jpg)
CH said "This one also shows a northbound crossing the bridge. Things sure have changed since then... "
No kidding..how could one shoot at burnside back then?? F units aside, it must have been boring with out the Tastee Shack there at the South end of the bridge..how could one eat a big double loaded tastee burger and a pound of chilli cheese fries with hot peppers..must have been pure hell :P
I know this topic is a wee bit old, and I don't know if I should just start a new topic, but.....
there are 2 Tunnels south of Andy Cooper Rd. ( North of Lancing), I haven't hiked them quite yet, as far as I know, they are still standing and are brick lined. They are fairly short. The first one, heading south, is just a few 100 feet from the "Little Lancing" intermediate signal bridge, the next one just further south.
There's one behind the Morgan County Fair Grounds near Annadel, this tunnel is the one located on the west side of the tracks. My uncle has hiked most of the tunnels on the south side of Morgan county and says this one you can still hike through it. I have heard that it has been caved in, the railroad flooded it and buried it, and all kinds of other stuff. One of the tunnels up there, as reported by my uncle, was so close to a bypass cut that the walls BULGED in.
There is (according to the topo map) one located under the US 27 overpass just south of Sunbright and north of Pilot Mountain intermediate signal. I'm not sure if it is accessible.
Of course you got #16 in sunbright, don't know if i'll hike that one in fear i might be trespassing on someone's property.
There is the Robbins tunnel which I don't know if you can hike that in fear of property trespassing.
Odly, according to the topo map, there is one on the Tennessee railway to Devonia. I have no idea if this is true or not.
The tunnels in Tennessee I haven't seen many pictures of them. I would like to see them in the flesh before their integrity fails.
Aaron
This seems to be one topic on here that is never old! Somebody has got to keep Butch coming back for more.... :)
Aaron seems to be a kindred spirit so to peak his interest, south of Helenwood along the old ROW are former CNO&TP tunnels 13 & 14.
The north end of 13
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref/TN-Rathole/13n.jpg)
The south end of 13
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref/TN-Rathole/13s.jpg)
Tunnel 14 had the floor of the tunnel lower to allow the creek to be rerouted, here is the north end
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref/TN-Rathole/14n.jpg)
The south end of 14
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref/TN-Rathole/14s.jpg)
And just beyond the old tunnel, there are still supports from the bridge over the creek
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref/TN-Rathole/14s-bridge.jpg)
None of the old tunnels were posted when I visited them, which means mostly that they weren't posted. I couldn't find anyone to ask about access, but no one questioned me either.
The swampy north end of Tunnel 15 near Robbins
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref/TN-Rathole/15n.jpg)
The south end of 15
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref/TN-Rathole/15s.jpg)
The north end of 16 at Sunbright-looks like they might be making a trail out of it
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref/TN-Rathole/16n.jpg)
The south end of 16
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref/TN-Rathole/16s.jpg)
Tunnel 17 is in the side of the cut near the US27 overpass. It has small openings at the top of the old portal. Here is the north end
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref/TN-Rathole/17n.jpg)
The south end of 17
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref/TN-Rathole/17s.jpg)
And for tunnels 18-21.
Tunnel 18 behind the fairgrounds is signifcantly below the current grade and full of water. The north portal
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref/TN-Rathole/18n.jpg)
The south end
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref/TN-Rathole/18s.jpg)
19 & 20 are south of Andy Cooper Rd. The north end of 19
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref/TN-Rathole/19n.jpg)
The south end of 19
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref/TN-Rathole/19s.jpg)
The north end of 20
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref/TN-Rathole/20n.jpg)
The south end of 20
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref/TN-Rathole/20s.jpg)
And 21 between Lancing and the river was daylighted, but there is still a small portion of the brick lining visible in the cut
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref/TN-Rathole/21.jpg)
I know some of the pix aren't great, but between my limited photography skills, the available light, and a point-n-shot camera, it's the best I could do. And for those reading the whole thread, some of the links in my previous posts are broken thanks to InsightBB. I will try to clean them up when I get a chance.
ba
Thank you so much Butch for sharing these pictures. They look perfect to me. Now, the real challenge, finding a picture of Tunnel 27 before it crumbled apart. Someone has one out there probably. Now i know which ones i should stay far away from. :D
Now, looking and # 18, you would really need a scubba suit to walk that one, and 17, is there anyway to get into that one?
Let me know if you find something on 27. 18 is lifejacket territory, but 17 is just climb up the hill. Both ends have 3-4 ft openings, but if you want to go in, the south end has water, so go the north end where it's only mud.
is it just me or do I see cross ties, or CONCRETE ties inside 17?
old wooden cross ties
surprised they didn't take them out of there, however they left a few in the ditch in old 22 at Nemo. Oh, my uncle said something about a name carved into south portal of old 22. A"J Peterson" or something. didn't know if you knew about that or not.
butch , those are great pix of the old tunnels !
Batman-thanks, I have fun figuring them all out.
Aaron-a lot of the abandoned tunnels still have at least some ties in them. Don't know anything about the carving
Next time i'm down at #22, i'll try to get a picture of it for you, Butch.
Ok, gotz me a little bit of news. After talking to my Uncle Mark. I found out there's a tunnel north of Oneida. I believe that 13 is not 13 and 14 is not 14 near Helenwood. The one north of Oneida is probably 13 and the one in Helenwood is probably 14. The Tunnel with the creek running through it is just a culvert. This is what my uncle said. I could be wrong, I hope to go up there and get pictures of it.
Early Cincinnati Southern documentation shows tunnels 13 & 14 less than .5 mile apart south of Helenwood. T 14 is immediately followed by bridge 80. If you have seen the tunnels, the old bridge supports, and the re-route of the creek, this all fits. Maybe your uncle is refering to the tunnel just out of Oneida that was daylighted in the early 70s shortly after the Southern took over the Tennessee Railroad (or Railway-I'm not sure on the name)
-Butch
Well, looking at 14, it doesn't seem possible that a 5' gauge line could fit into it. My other uncle has seen 14 in person, he says it's too small for rail traffic and was bored to divert the stream. I will have to talk to my uncle some more. The tunnel that was on the Tennessee Railway I knew about for a while now, but this one my uncle is referring to I believe is between signals "Bear Creek" and "Cross". This is a little bit confusing, but I'm going to try to get with my uncle to try and find the "tunnel".
BTW, I finally went through my photos and found a nice photo of the south end of old Tunnel 22, this is in fall so the vegetation isn't as dense
(http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg302/nsgelocos/IMG_0102.jpg)
Guys, this is eating me alive. I'm trying to read through it all and absorb everything I can. But all the broken links......I could cry ! haha
Is there any way I could organize this so we could have it as reference for anyone who wants to look ? I'd be glad to do anything I could to help. Everyone has posted different pieces of information and it sure would be great to put that all together into something before it's lost.
Such awesome stuff. Thanks everyone for sharing. It's great reading and looking through it.
Steve
Someone could make a web site with all 27 tunnels location references or make a forum topic that has all the references there.
I think one idea would be a handheld GPS. That way someone could record the exact position of each portal when visiting it. I think it was google maps that you could put a pushpin in for a given location and name it. We might be able to use clickable links from there to a website for each tunnel with pictures past and present and whatever information we had on that tunnel. That could include maps past and present as well.
Steve
Last weekend Carmon and myself killed a little time looking around old Burnside again, and I snagged a couple of new pics. The lake is down as far as it usually is, but the boat dock has made a new gravel parking area, and that gave us access to DRIVE on old US 27 from the marina, South down to the causeway for the new road that goes over to Gen. Burnside park.
This was a real treat for me..we had had the chance a few years ago to spend a afternoon walking around down there, but now I can say I have driven that stretch of road...that has been underwater for almost 60 years now.
Seeing as how we have a LOT of cool info in this thread, I thought I would bump it back up a bit for all the new folks that might have not found it yet. I still say we need to consoladate all this stuff from Butch and others into something more useful than a forum topic (hint) ..
http://www.pbase.com/kd4jsl/burnside
The Matrix, pointed South on old US 27...the last cars to drive here would have been a bit larger.
(http://jreb.org/v-web/gallery/albums/album50/matrixoldburnside021911.sized.jpg)
(http://jreb.org/v-web/gallery/albums/album50/matrixoldburnside_2_021911.sized.jpg)
And this sad little scene, a dirty little ducky, floating in a puddle next to the old road..maybe I am weird, but this gave me cold chills..
(http://jreb.org/v-web/gallery/albums/album50/dirtyduck021911.sized.jpg)
very cool pics !
Thanks Mike..
We where back down there yesterday (Saturday 03/12/11) and with all the rain that KY has had the past few weeks, the lake level was WAY up. That whole area we where driving around in was back under several feet of water, and the new parking lot the boat dock had put in was simply gone... All the new gravel sidewalks they had put in to reach the floating part of the docks where under water, cutting the entire place off unless you had a boat to take you to your boat..
Very late response...The Tennessee Railway tunnel was daylighted not long after Southern bought it. It is my understanding that the Southern maintained ownership of abandoned ROW, including the tunnels, so there are some tresspassing issues to consider.. for a second or two ;)
Tunnel 25
Tunnel 26 from north end. South end is not acceptable due to being in gated community, and north end is full of water.
Everyone says that tunnel 27 is caved in, however some local old timers say its only the ends that are caved in and that if you hike up the old bed you'll come to a portion of the tunnel still standing. Does anyone know if this is true??? Thanks
Interesting pix, did you have any trouble hiking through T25 to get to T26. The old T26 is full of water on the south end too.
I've seen both ends of T27-met a gentleman who grew up around the south end and remembered ice skating on the pond that formed in the cut that lead to the south portal. He also showed me a place where part of the middle of the tunnel had fallen in, but I didn't see any part that was open.
No... no problem at all getting to 26 through 25 (my wifes family works for railroad in Oakdale). We must have spoke to the same gentleman on tunnel 27. He said they use to go down there to ice skate in winter and look for arrow heads in the summer. Whats the best approach to the cave in from both ends do you remember?? We are going to today to look at a WOODEN tunnel that goes under Roosevelt Mountain between Rockwood and Westel. Believe it was owned by Tennessean Central. Heard of it???
Heres a few pics of tunnel between Rockwood and Westel. Its lined with wood. If you look at the last pic you can see where the tunnel calapsed and the mountain fell into the tunnel. Its since been cleaned out patched and is still in use. Anyone got any history on this one. Not really a part of the rat hole but still interesting none the less.
A Pass Key would make things a little easier. My family and I try to get out and explore every weekend but its getting harder to do. We live in a complex time... vandals are defacing and littering everything they can and in turn property owners are putting up fences and no trespassing signs... which really really sucks for those of us that simply want to get out and explore a little history and a little nature.
I find it interesting the differences in the brick work on the lined Ratholes. Notably, Tunnel 24's facing has mesh wire looking stuff with concrete and bricking behind it. Tunnel 26 has just solid bricks on the face with no mesh wire. Also that Tunnel 24 has bigger stones for the walls and then the curved arching is the smaller bricks. Tunnel 26 appears to have smaller bricks all the way from the floor to ceiling. Tunnels 19 and 20 have stone faces instead of the smooth brick or concrete facings. The large stone tops above the proper are generally the same on most of the lined tunnels along with the entrance arching with the notched stones to fit the curvature.
I don't know if you guys have seen these but with my ridiculous amounts of free time in Calculus class after assignments allows me to look up stuff on the internet. Here are some old old old photos I found...
Old tunnel 24 and depot
(http://www.nps.gov/obed/historyculture/images/Nemo-Depot.jpg)
Orignal C.W. Tower
(http://www.tngenweb.org/morgan/photoalbum/tower.jpg)
DB tower with a rathole in the background... Don't know what tunnel that is.
(http://www.tngenweb.org/morgan/photoalbum/tower2.jpg)
Tunnel 26 in its day
(http://www.tngenweb.org/morgan/photoalbum/TUNNELL.jpg)
Note these aren't my photos but i figure i would link them to here out of curiosity.
First, nsgelocos, please share where you found the old pix, they are great!
And here are some pix of the south end of the T26 tunnels from several years ago. Short version is I ran into someone at the gate who gave me the code so I could go take the pictures. Got some good pix, though nothing great of the signals. And the orginal T26 is grown-up, snakey, and full of water that looks waist deep. Made a return trip last year and the code still worked. Of course the gentleman who is responsible for the gate firmly told me that they like their privacy, was very unhappy that someone had shared a code, and asked me to leave.
Very cool pix nsgelocos and butch. I love historic pics. Funny how things change. Use to hate history in school... now I love it... lol.
Butch, http://www.tngenweb.org/morgan/photoalbum/index.html there are a few other old railroad pictures on here towards the bottom.
http://www.nps.gov/obed/historyculture/stories.htm This is where the old tunnel 24 photo came from.
I'm sorry to hear your last visit didn't go so well with the gateman. I get kind of paranoid railfanning around here myself and I live here. I was asked by a man at Andy Cooper road what i was doing and explained and he said "oh, that's cool! My son likes railfanning too. It's just a neighbor that knows me said that there was someone odd standing at the crossing and wanted me to go and see what was going on." The more isolated locations is where i feel more secure from being confronted.
And even at those isolated locations sometimes...
Me, and friend of mine, and my dad were confronted at old Bridge 89 by a couple of hunters and we told them of course what we were doing there and they said it was cool. Though I still feel like maybe one day I wont be able to hike the ratholes without getting confronted or even shot at (as a couple of people I know had gunfire on a trip).
Besides the negative talk above, Thanks for the photo posts. It's very very interesting to see these old bores still around. I'm almost tempted to buy an industrial water pump and sneak down at night to Tunnel 24 and pump it out just to see what's in those lakes 8) Pretty sure there's a muffler or two. I still haven't seen tunnel 1 and the cuts of 27 yet.
And lastly Morgan County Topo from 1893 : http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/topo/tennessee/txu-pclmaps-topo-tn-wartburg-1893.jpg :)
And Harriman from 1891 Including Tunnel 27: http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/topo/tennessee/txu-pclmaps-topo-tn-kingston-1891.jpg
I believe you will find that DB Tower was located in the short section between Tunnels 25 and 26.
Thanks for the links, I've looked enough to know I'm going to look a lot.
Most folks are pretty good after they understand what your interest is. And the ones that aren't, that's ok too. I've not run into anyone who really made me feel threatened...ok, one NS police guy tried to, but some folks have had bad experiences or just like their privacy.
And DB Tower shows up as mentioned on this 1913 [according to my notes] document.
Butch, you never cease to amaze me with the stuff you come up with. I must ask..do you have something like the map you just posted, for the rest of the RR?? It would be rather neat to put something together will all of the old Tower locations and call letters.
Emmett, yes, it covers Cincinnati to Chattanooga. What do you have in mind?
A copy of that if possible :)
I just keep thinking that between you and the other folks that have posted pics and material in this thread, there is enough to do "something" to put together a good documentation of some of this history, in one place. This stuff has fascinated me to no end (and must be the same for others..this is one of the longest running, most replied to threads on the board)
Check your email-it's a 5meg+ file
Im curious to what DB, CW, EG, KD, and SJ tower stand for... ???
Some of the tower names make sense, some do not.
EG tower..."Emory Gap"
SJ Tower "Southern Junction" When the CNO&TP was really the CNO&TP..the SOUTHERN line from St.Louis and Louisville connected at SJ Tower (Southbound) and Burgin (BR tower) Northbound, making a HUGE wye. The Harrodsburg to Burgin section was torn out in the early 1900's and the present day configuration at SJ tower came to be.
Heres an attempt at coordinates for Tennessee rat holes. Any help filling in holes or corrections would be appropriated. Thanks
Butch I would love a copy of the map also if you don't mind. Thanks
OK, here is a smaller version of it. It's lacks clarity, but you can read it.
Oliver's list of coordinates spurred me into action. I plugged the coordinates into a Google Map. I attached the remaining pictures from this thread into the place markers. The Kentucky tunnels aren't on the map yet - but I have allowed anyone to contribute. Edit the map to add more place markers, or drag the ones that are there to the correct coordinates.
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=200261820091388587171.00049fdc494d12f0ac1ec&ll=36.542743,-84.559021&spn=1.416646,2.208252&t=h&z=9 (http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=200261820091388587171.00049fdc494d12f0ac1ec&ll=36.542743,-84.559021&spn=1.416646,2.208252&t=h&z=9)
How's that for office desk railfanning?
Rnhatch all looks good...glad i could be of some use. However the pic u have on 23 acually belongs on 24 i believe. It has 24 on the marker above it. As soon as i can get topos of Kentucky I will post more.
desk railfanning indeed...now to just get KY on there.
That is a fine recourse to say the least. I cant count how many hundreds of times I have been all down through there, and never fully understood how some of the reroutes where done. Fine job and a good start.
Butch may be away from the board a few days, but I am sure he will love this when he gets a chance to see it!
I was considering, if I ever get an HD camera and add professional audio from my recorder simaltaniously, making a Pentrex-like Rathole documentary with all 27 tunnels and other info that all the other Rathole films I have seen don't mention or show. As all 27 tunnels have fascinated me.
my, how things can change, in a short time. A month ago, Carmon and myself where driving on old US 27 (pics in this thread a ways back) and now, you would have to go swimming. The massive amounts of rain we have got in Central KY seem to have filled the lake back up a tad.
This was taken 04/30/11, standing on the hill above the boat dock, looking South where old Burnside used to be. I wonder where that rubber ducky I shot down there is now :)
(http://jreb.org/v-web/gallery/albums/album50/burnsidelake_043011.sized.jpg)
Hey all! Don't know if you're aware of it but a horrible head on collision occurred in tunnel #5 in 1890. Here's a link to a newspaper article that appeared in all places...New Jersey! http://www.gendisasters.com/data1/ky/trains/sloansvalley-trainwreckoct1890.htm
Been to the tunnel a few times but the south portal (which is most accessable) is under water.
If you go in the winter time, sometimes its frozen solid and you can explore.
Hi Guys,
I'm new to the forum and found this topic extremely interesting. I have family in the Somerset area and was down there this past fall. I've not had a chance to get to any of the tunnels yet. A quick question, are tunnels 3 & 4 still accesseble since the 27/90 interchange has been redone? I'd really like to check these out on my next trip. Also, some of the posted pictures I can't see and ould really like to. Is there any way to get to those? Thanks, Geno. ;D
Welcome. To answer your T3-4 question, yes- see http://www.jreb.org/ns/index.php?topic=10643.0 (http://www.jreb.org/ns/index.php?topic=10643.0) as I was there yesterday. Course I would suggest being careful this time of year. And if you go all the way to the lake, the trees are blocking most of the view of the current RR bridge.
As for the "lost" pix, there have been some issues over the years and some of the older stuff didn't survive. I guess it's time for me to dig out my stuff and repost the Rathole archive.
Gene, welcome to the forum! Its odd in a way that on a "Modern" NS board, this subject has been the most popular and long lived subject on the board....but thats OK with me! Feel free to badger Butch into re-posting some of his stuff that is missing, I bet he has a few gems we would like to see again..or havnt seen at all.
Thanks for the welcome guys, It is appreciated. I love this kind of stuff. My father is from Barbourville and my Father-in-law from Whitley City. I love the area and am especially fascinated with the tunnels. I'd love to see any old and new pics. My wife and I did follow the Kathy Crockett trail north toward tunnel 5 but we couldn't wade our way through the marshy area to get to the portal which I was hoping to do. Our next trip down will probably be 4th of July weekend and may not be a good time to tunnel hunt?? Or would it? You guys know best, lol. My wife hates snakes. Again, thanks. ;D
OK, I'm going to use a lot of winter pix because it's easier to see when the foliage is down.
Rathole Tunnels Part I:
T1 is between Wilmore and High Bridge, on private land, has severe roof fall, junked up on the south end, and not really considered part of the Rathole, but I'm including it anyway.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/T1s.JPG)
T2 at Kings Mountain is the northernmost of the Rathole tunnels and at 4,652 feet, it was the longest. The northern portal is grown up and always full of water.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/T2n.jpg)
The T2 southern portal is just west of the cut as viewed from the highway bridge and the north portal is the white dot inside the tunnel in this trackside view.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/T2s.JPG)
Rathole Tunnels Part II:
Down the road at Burnside, just past Grove is the northern portal of T3.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/T3n.JPG)
As short hike through the old tunnel brings you out the southern portal.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/T3s.JPG)
Vehicles have to turn around here, but a path follows the CNO&TP around the lake to the northern portal of T4.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/T4n.JPG)
The hike through T4 is a bit rougher and wetter-did I mention you should bring flashlights? The southern portal is less than 100 ft from the edge of Lake Cumberland.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/T4s.JPG)
Here are a couple of trains crossing the current bridge as viewed from the site of the original bridge.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/T4view.JPG)
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/BurnsideBdg.jpg)
And here is the view of the southern T4 portal from across the lake.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/T4lake.JPG)
Rathole Tunnels Part III:
T5 is at the head of Sloans Valley, the northern portal is on a farm.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/T5n.JPG)
The southern portal of T5 five is visible from the Cathy Crockett walking trail, but it knee-deep muck and always swampy unless it's frozen over.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/T5s.JPG)
189 ft. Tunnel 6 was daylighted in 1901, but the cut can still be hiked from the Alpine access.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/T6.JPG)
The T7 northern portal is a short hike on the old grade from the couple hundred hike up from Gut Lick Creek. Note the craftmanship of the stone work and the No 7 and the 1892 date on the face.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/T7n.JPG)
The southern portal of T7 is 1,160 ft. away.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/T7s.JPG)
Awesome pics, thanks for taking the time to post them Butch. I know the northen portal of T11 was buried during the highway construction. How hard is it to get to the soutern portal? My apologies for so many questions, I just want to gather all the knowledge and info I can before I go back down. Again, thank you, sincerely, Geno.
As I understand, the lower half of tunnel 5 is brick lined while the rest is solid rock.
Anyone want to rent an industrial strength water pump? :)
I'm surprised with so many tunnels no one has took them over for mushroom farming. There was talk of doing that to the old Braswell tunnel when Southern moved the main line. Most of these tunnels are longer than the Braswell tunnel which I guess was around a thousand feet long. The Seaboard tunnel not far away is part of the Silver Comet trail. the SCL tunnel is a bit shorter than the old Southern. Should I have called the Southern Tunnel the ETV&G instead?
Id figure I'd add my photos.
Tunnels 19 and 20 south of Andy Cooper Rd.
Little Lancing signal gantry indicating there is an interlocking at the next signal south (Lancing). The North Portal of Tunnel 19 is off the right of the signal gantry
(http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg302/nsgelocos/DSC_0412.jpg)
North Portal of tunnel 19. The number stone has fell off the top and is down there somewhere. It was one of the first tunnels to be bypassed with a length only of 360 feet. The cut made around the tunnel was so close in proximity to the tunnel that it pushed the east wall in towards the south end. A small section of the west wall has fell in. Don't worry it is only a 8x8 foot section of wall.
(http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg302/nsgelocos/DSC_0389.jpg)
The # stone on the north portal is still there.
(http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg302/nsgelocos/DSC_0390.jpg)
A view of the south portal from mainline level shows how close the engineers made the cut around it.
(http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg302/nsgelocos/DSC_0407.jpg)
North Portal from mainline level. Another view of how close it is to the cut.
(http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg302/nsgelocos/DSC_0409.jpg)
Just around the curve, off to the right, and after some impressive ninja maneuvers through some downed trees is the North Portal of tunnel 20. The # stone is still up on this end and a little filled in. This tunnel was cut off the line a little later than tunnel 19.
(http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg302/nsgelocos/DSC_0391.jpg)
Inside of it. A lot of the tunnels still have the old wooden ties within them. You can see the south end is very very filled in. That's about a 4 foot crawl space there.
(http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg302/nsgelocos/DSC_0392.jpg)
The south portal. The number stone is in that pile of dirt... somewhere. Very filled in.
(http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg302/nsgelocos/DSC_0393.jpg)
The old railroad grade runs for another quarter mile before linking up with the main. Along the old grade is a bunch of parts from vehicles. There is an old school bus down off to the side. Makes me wonder how in the *insert word of choice* it got there without much access down there.
After linking up with the main, the main swings around a curve over rock creek. Two large trestles are located there. Tunnel 21 used to be on the other side of the bridge in the cut. It's obvious that the newer bridge with the second track has resulted in it being daylighted. Butch has a photo earlier in this topic of the remains of a section of brick lining from 21.
(http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg302/nsgelocos/DSC_0395.jpg)
I'd like to thank Butch for all the info and such on the tunnels :)
Enjoy
To Aaron's comment on the brick lining of Tunnel 5, here are some examples:
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/T5a.JPG)
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/T5b.JPG)
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/T5c.JPG)
Rathole Tunnels Part IV:
I've made a couple of edits to the earlier posts and now to pick up where we left off, the northern portal of T8 is a short hike from T7.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/T8n.JPG)
It is a shorter tunnel, here is the T8 southern portal.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/T8s.JPG)
Maybe a half mile further along the old grade-an easy walk thanks to the ATVs who run through the tunnels- is the northern portal of T9.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/T9n.JPG)
T9 is another longer tunnel and once the southern portal is reached, a pond in the old cut soon forces you to turn around and head back.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/T9s.JPG)
Here is a good example of the craftsmanship that went into building the tunnels. The stones for the arch for T9 appear to have been pre-cut and labeled so that they could be installed correctly. this can be observed at many of the tunnels.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/T9stone.JPG)
Just north of the Cumberland Falls signal and only 270 feet long, T10 was daylighted in 1907. The cut at that location is still in use by the current NS.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/T10.JPG)
Just below where the current double-track ends is the remaining southern half of T11. The northern half of the tunnel was filled in during the expansion of US 27. The southern portal is just as swampy as T5 and harder to get to because you have to climb from the highway down into the old cut.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/T11s.JPG)
The by-passed remains of T12 are back in the woods just north of Wiborg. Once again, the northern portal tends to be swampy.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/T12n.JPG)
The southern portal is easily reached from the ATV trail on the old grade.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/T12s.JPG)
Rathole Tunnels Part V:
Now we've finally made it to Tennesse. T13 and T14 were just below Helenwood along the abandoned track. The northern portal of T13 is gone leaving the exposed brick lining.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/T13n.JPG)
The grade to the southern portal is tree-lined.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/T13s.JPG)
T14 is unique in that at some point it had the bottom of the tunnel blasted away to allow the creek to be diverted through it and eliminating not only the tunnel, but two bridges.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/T14n.JPG)
There are still several stone pillars from the bridge that faced the T14 southern portal.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/T14s.JPG)
The center span of the original CNO&TP [Cincinnati Southern really] Bridge 81 that spanned the New River is still standing.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/Bridge81.JPG)
The 1963 realignment that by-passed Bridge 81 also by-passed T15, the northen portal seen here located far down the side of the ridge.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/T15n.JPG)
However, the southern portal is easy to get to, sort of. The old US 27 loop to Mountian View goes right across the top of it, you just can't get down in the cut-note the guard rail visilbe in the pic.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/T15s.JPG)
Rathole Tunnels Part VI:
T16 is located on the northern edge of Sunbright and was posted the last time I stopped to check it out. Here is an older view of the southern portal.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/T16s.JPG)
T17 is located just inside the cut that is just north of where US 27 goes over the tracks below Sunbright. The northern portal is very difficult to see if you don't know what you're looking for. The first pic is of the remains of the southern portal-look above the rock in the center of the pic.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/T17nb.JPG)
After climbing up, the fill has settled and the tunnel can be accessed...if you don't mind the mud.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/T17na.JPG)
The T17 southern end is even harder to spot without foreknowledge of the location.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/T17s.JPG)
T18 is below Annadel and near the tracks, but not really near anything else. The current grade is above the top of the old tunnel. The northern end is not directly accessable because of water.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/T18n.JPG)
The T18 southern portal is not directly accessible because of briars...well, it's really difficult anyway.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/T18s.JPG)
Thanks guys, love the pics. I'm even more intrigued now, lol. What a great thread.;D
Rathole Tunnels Part VII:
Aaron has already posted T19 and T20 so let's move on to T21 at Lancing. Just south of his bridge pic is where T21 was before it was daylighted. There are still some places where the brick lining remains.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/T21.JPG)
Now we're getting to T22, T23, and T24 at Nemo which were bypassed by the new T22 and T24 in 1963.
Access to the original T22 requires hiking through T23 and crossing the Emory River. Here is the T22 northern portal.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/T22n.JPG)
And the T22 southern portal which while it appears relatively clear, is not easily seen from 100 ft. away.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/T22s.JPG)
T23 sits just off the curve between the new tunnels. Here is the northern portal.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/T23n.JPG)
The southern T23 portal is right next to the current grade which is just to the left in this pic.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/T23s.JPG)
T24 is the granddaddy at Nemo. While it is used for access, 4-wheel drive is recommended because of the multiple deep pools of water in the south end. This view of the northern portal is no longer available because the stone arch of the portal has collapsed in the last year.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/T24n.JPG)
The southern T24 portal is still in good shape.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/T24s.JPG)
Three miles below Nemo is the bridge over Crooked Creek near the Coleman CP. It's not a tunnel, but I like the pic.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/CrookedForkBridge.jpg)
Just for everyone to see... As Butch mentioned, the Northern Portal of Tunnel 24 has had same collapse. Here is what it looks like since.
http://s251.photobucket.com/albums/gg302/nsgelocos/?action-view¤t=tunnel24collapse001.jpg
No sign of the old number stone as whoever cleared the mess up to assist traffic through the tunnel has probably done run off with it... Although, me and Butch have a theory it might still be down there somewhere. ::)
Rathole Tunnels Part VIII:
Oakdale south: Though they are not included with every discussion of the Rathole because they were on the 3rd District, here are T25, T26, and T27.
T25 faces the Oakdale Yard and is the original tunnel. It was enlarged in 1963 and the north portal can be seen from the highway bridge.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/T25n.JPG)
Getting to T26 requires going through T25, crossing the river on a boat, or going to the southern portal which means access through a gated community-be sure you have permission if you want to get to that portal.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/T26s.JPG)
T27 at Harriman was by-passed in 1904 and has collasped at both ends. The northern portal is on private land and takes a creative mind to see any evidence of the RR.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/T27n.JPG)
The cut to the T27 southern portal is behind the Harriman golf course.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/T27s.JPG)
Rathole Tunnels Part IX:
The new tunnels T22, T24, and T26: The massive realignment in 1963 [see http://southern.railfan.net/ (http://southern.railfan.net/) for the great August 1963 Ties article "90 Years to Daylight"] included the construction of three new tunnels.
The T22 northern portal is accessed the same way as the original T22, just follow the old grade through the weeds. Here a nb train approaches CW Tower.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/nT22n.JPG)
The southern portal of the new T22 yields several possible photo angles: Right side.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/0T22.jpg)
Left side.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/0T22x.jpg)
From the river.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/nT22river.JPG)
Next to CNO&TP T23 southern portal.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/0T22-.jpg)
The new T24 northern portal on a cold winter morning.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/0T24.jpg)
The new T24 southern portal is a popular spot for pix.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/T24b.jpg)
The new T26 is difficult to access as already mentioned. But I have been able to visit and caught a couple of sb trains coming out of the tunnel.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/T26-1.jpg)
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/T26-2.jpg)
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref51/Rathole/n-T26s.JPG)
I'm going to link my You-Tube videos I made a few years back to present. Including the tunnels
These are my Nemo Adventure videos in order Parts 1-3 with all the old tunnels. Walkthroughs on tunnels 22 and 23 and a drive through on tunnel 24.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2U_xlCoMhXU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lUowMuz-Lg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6vpjX54TS0&feature=related
Tunnels 19 and 20 walkthrough with my friends *please pardon some of the dialogue from my buddy* ::)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVjpNd8GePQ&feature=related
For Butch. The northbound train (after the first train of course) plunges into the tunnel, the ditch lights reflect the solid rock formation within the new tunnel 22. The new tunnels did not receive full concrete lining all the way.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYzLgomKn9Y&feature=related
Fall of 2010 vids of C.W. Tower with tunnel 22
51Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJVTEpIf0IA&feature=related
174
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZHKlxHnQME
215 with a Leslie RS-5T horn
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGGfQ96-2d8&feature=related
That T14 just bewilders me.. I have been there myself and seen it, and I can just not wrap my head around the fact it was built for anything else than to run that creek through. Its just to narrow, and not from cave in's. Are we sure that was a RR tunnel? I just cant see a PS4 or TS1 fitting through there...heck, I would probably have to turn sideways myself!
E.M. Bell -> My Uncle Mark, who lives in Oneida, says there is a tunnel up there next to highway 27. He said it's lined and all. (NOT REFFERING TO ONE DAYLIGHTED IN THE 1970s ON THE TENNESSEE RAILWAY). I'm going to try to get with him and find out more info on this tunnel and see if it's there. I'm not 100% sure on this account, but T14 could not be T14. However, Butch has said some of the track charts from the time 13 and 14 were in use specify that they are a half mile apart from each other. Also, the bridges close to there.
I begin to wonder ???
Could there be a 28th Rathole? :o
Emmett, I would entertain the T14 creek by-pass not being the tunnel, but there are still old stone bridge supports on the south end that line up with it and the 1907 chart matches the location with bridges on both sides. I don't have it on my laptop, but I'll post it when I get back home. However, I'll put reinvestigation on my list.
Aaron, the T22 video jogged my memory-I have rock hopped the river when it was low and I do remember the lining transition. And the Oneida tunnel is puzzling-was there another RR in the area?
The Oneida tunnel is puzzling... I'm going to get in contact with my Uncle and such and try to get up there and get photos.
The only two railroads that were in Oneida was the Tennessee Railway (Oneida - Devonia) and the Oneida and Western that went... well... west.
I remember my uncle did say that "the old mainline" to the tunnel went through town at one time. I don't know which main he means, but the way he talked i believe he meant the CNO&TP.
Emmett, this is some of the T14 bridge remains I mentioned.
(http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref/TN-Rathole/14s-bridge.jpg)
Very interesting line and photos. Exactally why was all this line abandoned and why where the tuneels daylighted where NS still uses the original grade? Also why where new tunnels put in at Oakdale? I have to agree with Emmett, though, I dont think a train could have made it through that Tunnel 14.
Paul
love this thread !
Quote from: Ptrainman on June 10, 2011, 04:01:02 PM
Exactally why was all this line abandoned and why where the tuneels daylighted where NS still uses the original grade? Also why where new tunnels put in at Oakdale?
The best summary of the tunnel history is the August 1963 issue of Ties. In Part IX, I linked to the Southern Railfan site that has it online.
Where's the best place to access tunnels 3 & 4?
There's a little crossing by the Grove signal, go cross the tracks and turn left. When the asphalt ends you're on the original CNO&TP grade. You can drive to T3. Wear long pants and don't step on any of Emmett's favorite pets.
Thanks Butch, I appreciate the info. I can't wait to get back down there.;D
I have some friends in Wilmore that are trying to get permission from the land owner to get me access to tunnel #1. I don't know when/if this will happen, but if it does, I will post pics here.
Paul
Sounds great Paul, good luck and I can't wait to see the pics. ;D
I absolutely love this thread. I started working for ns about a year ago and just this summer learned of these abandoned tunnels. I live in Somerset, Ky and can't believe I've lived here my whole life without knowing about these tunnels. So far I've checked out tunnels 2, 3, , 4, 5, 7, 8, 9 and 11. Hoping to check out 12 soon when I get a free weekend. Next year we will be working around Harriman and I plan to visit the Tennessee tunnels while in the area. I used Google maps to help me locate some of the tunnels but the coordinates were a little off. Is there a way for me to mark these tunnels on Gps as I visit them? I'd like to a have them spot on to help others in the future who may want to visit the tunnels.
I was up at tunnel #2 at kings mountain a few days ago and part of the east wall about a couple hundred feet from the north end had fallen in. It wasnt a big fall in and is easily walked around... but still sad to see it starting. Dont know how long it has been like this as this was my first time in the tunnel but I didnt see it mentioned on here in any descriptions so thought I would give everyone a heads up on that.
Also someone mentioned the ventilation shaft at the middle of the tunnel. I dont recall seeing a fan still in it but it was dripping a LOT of water at the time so it was a little hard to see up in the shaft. There is another shaft about a 1/3 of the way into the tunnel from the south end that is off centered to the east side of the tunnel. Its really easy to overlook it... in fact I didnt see it until we walked back through the tunnel to exit it. Anyways I wonder why it was off to the side like that and not in the center like the other shaft? I have some pictures I took of the shafts and will post them when I get the chance.
First off here is a link to what Ive collected so far and plan on rapping up TN Ratholes in the next few months. https://www.flickr.com/photos/78994628@N02/sets/72157630564170596/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/78994628@N02/sets/72157630564170596/)
Second... found this online with a bunch of historic pics of Harriman. Note claims to be Tunnel 27 but pic shows wood reinforcments.. never seen on any tunnels.. Is it truly tunnel 27 of a mine shaft pic???
Good stuff. On the T27 pic, many of the orginal Cincinnati Southern Railway tunnels had timber linings-one of the requirements of the CNO&TP lease was that they replace the timber linings with stone or brick. T27 was not a good candidate for lining so it was bypassed by the current cut that went into service in 1904. This would fit the timeframe of your picture which looks like it was taken after the rails were removed.
Tunnel 18 has been added.. hope to do 19-21 next.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/78994628@N02/?details=1
Nice! I have never honestly stepped inside of Tunnel 18 the two times I've been there. The second time, me and some friends did a "George of the Jungle" leap with some rope to the south portal from the side of the cut. We finally got up to it, but while we were looking through the tunnel, the north portal vanished, and black, cold fog began to role out. Needless to say, we were a bit freaked out.
Cool story nsgelocos.. It is one of the creeper tunnels..probably because of the water. I got a funny story on tunnel 24. It was the first tunnel I had been to and a couple of buddies decided to walk through it with no flash lights. About half way through I told them we should do a group photo. They laughed and agreed. Couple weeks later when I got the film developed there I was in the tunnel smiling for the camera as my 2 buddies mooned the camera... I had no idea... I still hear about it till this day.
Any-ways I've added tunnel 16 to the following link. I will post 19 and 20 soon. Everyone have a Great Easter!!
https://www.flickr.com/photos/78994628@N02/sets/72157630564170596/
19 is up. Hopefully will have 20 up tomorrow. Looked for remains of 21 and didn't see anything. Will look again.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/78994628@N02/sets/72157630564170596/
Quote from: The Olivers on April 20, 2014, 07:36:50 PM
19 is up. Hopefully will have 20 up tomorrow. Looked for remains of 21 and didn't see anything. Will look again.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/78994628@N02/sets/72157630564170596/
Check the East wall of the cut just north of the bridge in Lancing passed the end of the siding. Should be several sections of lining there.
20 is up now.. making plans for 13-14. Will probably be a couple weeks. Hope You guys are enjoying the pics!!
https://www.flickr.com/photos/78994628@N02/sets/72157630564170596/
Quote from: nsgelocos on April 20, 2014, 08:28:32 PM
Quote from: The Olivers on April 20, 2014, 07:36:50 PM
19 is up. Hopefully will have 20 up tomorrow. Looked for remains of 21 and didn't see anything. Will look again.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/78994628@N02/sets/72157630564170596/
Check the East wall of the cut just north of the bridge in Lancing passed the end of the siding. Should be several sections of lining there.
Thanks for the info. There was a bunch of dogs running around and the area looked a bit rough so I didn't bother getting out of the car with the kids.
This thread never disappoints. That T27 find is truly a jewel, completing documentation of these tunnels. 27 has, in my opinion, been the long lost one.
We ventured into 16 today and felt a lucky, so we decided to sound off inside the tunnel. I think the tunnel made a cool effect on the airhorns. I've made this link public on Facebook for non-friend viewers if interested. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=668023193233839&set=vb.100000784926433&type=2&theater
Other news, Tunnel 24 is being dug out and ditched by NS to get the water out of it in preparations for it to return to access road use for work on bridge 89. This is great news for us tunnel explorers, no more car swimming in there. Source of mine says a gate over the portal is possible, but knowing a certain other group of patrons at Nemo, the gate probably wouldn't last long.
-Alex
Just curious as I've not had a bit of luck finding anything, but does anyone have pics of tunnel 11 at Parkers Lake? Thanks, Geno.
This topic has intrigued me since it first started. It would be fairly easy obtain old topo maps (20's etc) that show the old alignment and tunnels to locate them. These are geo referenced and can be overlaid on google earth and thus compare exactly the old line and new line alignments and tunnel locations. Old maps can either be quadrangel or 7.5 minutes. For example the burnside quadrangle can be found at thttp://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/topo/kentucky/txu-pclmaps-topo-ky-burnside-1928.jpgo
just google old topo maps of KY etc. There are many free sources.
Wow, nothing on tunnel 11, I was hoping to find historic pics and maybe some modern ones also. i figured there are so many photos of all the other tunnels that someone would have something. Any help is appreciated. Thanks, Geno.
I can't help you with tunnel #11, but here is a link to a page with some old topo maps, from the late 1800s, early 1900s, 1920s, and 1930s. Burnside 1928, and Somerset 1929 are in there. No Parkers Lake map. There is a Harrodsburg 1930 map. The first line has an index map, then the maps that are available follow, in alphabetical order. There are maps from all over the state of KY, but they are scattered. Only a relatively small number of old maps are included. It looks like maybe 100.
This could be of interest to a lot of other people on Jreb, so I want to show this.
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/topo/kentucky/ (http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/topo/kentucky/)
Thanks Bill, hopefully some one has some pics.
Here is T11 from last Saturday and an inside shot that Emmett cleaned up for me that shows where the US27 construction caved the northern part in. You can't tell in the pic, but the debris is at about a 45 degree angle. T11 is just south Parker's Lake off where Rt 927/Day Ridge Rd heads west. I'll add a topo tomorrow.
Awesome, thanks so much Butch, I sure do appreciate it. do you know how much of the tunnel was filled/caved to do the road project? Love the pics. 8) :D
Thanks Gene. Since T11 was 465 ft. long, I'd ballpark it at 200 ft being gone, but that's just an eyeball guess. If you can get a copy of the December 2013 issue of Trains magazine, Ron Flanary's Rathole article has a lot of information.
Here is the early 1950s topo I mentioned. It shows the location of T11 below Parkers Lake, T12 above Wiborg, and if you look for the "arrowhead" shaped ridge about halfway between Greenwood and Parkers Lake, that is where T10 was daylighted.
Thanks again for the info and pics Butch. I'd just never seen much info or any pics on Tunnel 11 and am fascinated with the area. 8)
Finally got to south portal of 15.. getting close to having them all.. Take a gander!
https://www.flickr.com/photos/78994628@N02/sets/72157630564170596
I recently visited Tunnel Nos. 3 and 4 at Burnside and Nos. 7 and 8 near Greenwood.
I've posted more photos and narrative at https://abandonedonline.net/a-winter-exploration-of-four-cincinnati-southern-railway-tunnels/, with the full gallery at https://abandonedonline.net/location/cincinnati-southern-railway/
Tunnel No. 3:
(https://i0.wp.com/abandonedonline.net/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/20231126-20231126-59426-Enhanced-NR-1024x684.jpg?strip=info&w=1600&ssl=1)
(https://i0.wp.com/abandonedonline.net/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/20231126-20231126-59433-1024x684.jpg?strip=info&w=1600&ssl=1)
(https://i2.wp.com/abandonedonline.net/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/20231126-20231126-59451-HDR-684x1024.jpg?strip=info&w=1068&ssl=1)
Tunnel No. 4:
(https://i2.wp.com/abandonedonline.net/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/20231126-20231126-59422-HDR-684x1024.jpg?strip=info&w=1068&ssl=1)
(https://i2.wp.com/abandonedonline.net/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/20231126-20231126-59417-684x1024.jpg?strip=info&w=1068&ssl=1)
(https://i1.wp.com/abandonedonline.net/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/20231126-20231126-59415-HDR-684x1024.jpg?strip=info&w=1068&ssl=1)
(https://i1.wp.com/abandonedonline.net/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/20231126-20231126-59388-1024x684.jpg?strip=info&w=1600&ssl=1)
Tunnel No. 7:
(https://i2.wp.com/abandonedonline.net/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/20231126-20231126-59531-1024x684.jpg?strip=info&w=1600&ssl=1)
(https://i1.wp.com/abandonedonline.net/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/20231126-20231126-59525-684x1024.jpg?strip=info&w=1068&ssl=1)
(https://i2.wp.com/abandonedonline.net/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/20231126-20231126-59456-Edit-1024x684.jpg?strip=info&w=1600&ssl=1)
(https://i1.wp.com/abandonedonline.net/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/20231126-20231126-59468-1024x684.jpg?strip=info&w=1600&ssl=1)
Tunnel No. 8:
(https://i2.wp.com/abandonedonline.net/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/20231126-20231126-59514-HDR-Edit-684x1024.jpg?strip=info&w=1068&ssl=1)
(https://i1.wp.com/abandonedonline.net/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/20231126-20231126-59499-HDR-1024x684.jpg?strip=info&w=1600&ssl=1)
Additionally, we looked for an easy way down to No. 5 under US 27. I have one photo from it years ago but can't remember how I actually got down to it. There is a driveway located at https://maps.app.goo.gl/Pn7rLKfR8Yd1kMv17 that appeared to have been a trailhead at one point, with a mailbox that reads "Trailhead," yet there are a plethora of signs, cameras, and LED lights at the entrance. I think this is where I parked before and walked up the old right-of-way, but it looks like a landowner isn't too keen on this now. This would make for a fantastic trailhead parking area for multiple tunnels.
Just wanted to share this information, as i explore parts of DBNF for onX Off-road. As of 12-1-2014, tunnels 7, 8, and 9 are closed to the public. I'm going to the Ranger Station to investigate further, in a few days.
Those are harsh punishments for walking into an old RR tunnel. Many drug dealers probably don't get it that bad. I suppose the reasoning is that if a person gets in trouble in a tunnel, then it might or would, depending on the situation, put rescue personnel in danger by going in to rescue somebody.