Since most of you nice folks aren't from my neck of the woods, I will gladly share information and pics from the Empire Link with you. It is a partnership that NS formed with 10 shortlines in upstate NY and northern PA few years back. I figure most NS fans will like seeing the shortlines which interchange with NS, so here we go. ;D
This is the press release from NS announcing the new operation in 2008: http://www.nscorp.com/nscportal/nscorp/Media/News%20Releases/2008/shorthaul.html
The first shortline in the Empire Link we will look at is the Finger Lakes Railway. As the name says, FGLK is located in the heart of the lake region of upstate NY. It is a sprawling collection of former Lehigh Valley, New York Central and Pennsy branchlines, spun off by Conrail in 1995. FGLK is headquartered in Geneva... and their main yard is located there, too. I spent three different days chasing their local HW2 this year. It operates several days per week between Himrod and Watkins Glen. The most recent occasion was just a little over 2 months ago.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/Oct%202011/DSC03393.jpg)
Photo taken by me Friday 10/14/2011 in Starkey, NY.
HW2 runs through some very scenic countryside. In this case, the train is heading southbound along the western side of Seneca Lake.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/Oct%202011/DSC03473.jpg)
Photo taken by me Friday 10/14/2011 in Reading, NY.
Most of the traffic for the FGLK local HW2 is salt-related. GE #2307 is emerging from the Cargill salt mine facility at the south end of Seneca Lake.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/Oct%202011/DSC03513.jpg)
Photo taken by me Friday 10/14/2011 in Wakins Glen, NY.
Much of the waterfront at the south end of Seneca Lake was a sprawling rail yard back in the days when this line was bustling brnach of the Pennsylvania RR. In more recent years, it's been gentrified somewhat (except for the salt mines), so FGLK runs past a couple of marinas and a park on the northbound trip out of town.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/Oct%202011/DSC03523.jpg)
Photo taken by me Friday 10/14/2011 in Watkins Glen, NY.
The grade on the northbound trip is pretty steep. It exceeds 1% as the train climbs from the lake shore to the hill tops west of Seneca Lake. Thus, FGLK often assigns a B23-7 to the job, even when the consist is a lone boxcar.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/Oct%202011/DSC03557.jpg)
Photo taken by me Friday 10/14/2011 in Glenora, NY.
FGLK built this transfer yard a couple miles south of where the ex-PRR crosses Norfolk Southern's ex-NYC Corning Secondary.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/Oct%202011/DSC03577.jpg)
Photo taken by me Friday 10/14/2011 in Himrod, NY.
The former Pennsy Elmira Branch is isolated from the rest of the Finger Lakes Railway's lines, so FGLK bridges the gap via trackage rights on NS's Corning Secondary between Himrod and Geneva. I have yet to see a Finger Lakes Railway train on this route.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/Oct%202011/DSC03580.jpg)
Photo taken by me Friday 10/14/2011 in the Town of Geneva, NY.
Norfolk Southern interchanges with the Finger Lakes Railway right in the heart of Geneva. NS local H06 makes the the trip north from Gang Mills several night per week (usually Sun-Tue-Thu). By day, FGLK local GY1 uses the Corning Secondary to access the former NYC Auburn Road.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/Oct2010/DSC06034.jpg)
Photo taken by me Fri 10/15/2010 in the City of Geneva, NY.
FGLK local GY1 also services a couple customers at an industrial park on the Corning Secondary itself.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/Oct2010/DSC06150.jpg)
Photo taken by me Friday 10/15/2011 in the City of Geneva, NY.
The Finger Lakes Railway is more than just a freight operation. They also offer a first rate excursion service. This year saw a cutback in the excursion schedule, but I still caught an excursion on the former Lehigh Valley mainline a few weeks ago.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/Nov%202011/DSC04146.jpg)
Photo taken by me Sunday 11/27/2011 in the Village of Victor, NY.
Notice the LV-inspired livery on FGLK #2201. Coincidence? Not a chance! FGLK honors the heritage of LV, NYC and even CR with its locomotives. In this case, FGLK is making a nod to the U23B class, which were the last new locomotives delivered to the Lehigh Valley, back in 1974.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/Nov%202011/DSC04163.jpg)
Photo taken by me Sunday 11/27/2011 in the Village of Victor, NY.
While most of the Finger Lakes Railway fleet is GE, there are a couple of EMDs on the property, too. Indeed, #1701 is one the three original Geeps that kicked off FGLK operations over 16 years ago.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/Nov%202011/DSC04179.jpg)
Photo taken by me Sunday 11/27/2011 in the Town of Victor, NY.
That being said, EMDs are slowly dwindling on the FGLK roster. Three of them, including #1751, have been sold or traded in recent years. This GP9 had the distinction of being the only unrebuilt on the Finger Lakes Railway until she was recently traded to the Conway Scneic RR.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/Oct2010/DSC07019.jpg)
Photo taken by me Saturday 10/30/2010 in Farmington, NY.
By now, I think you have the idea of how I'll present the shortlines in this thread. Each of them will be a partner with NS in the Empire Link and I hope y'all enjoy it.
For more information on the FGLK roster: http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/scottychaos/FGLK/
(A special thanks goes out to my friend Scot Lawrence for putting the roster list together.)
Finger Lakes Railway excursions: http://fingerlakesscenicrailway.com/
FGLK freight operations: http://fglkrail.com/
The Corning Secondary predates NS ownership- it was the name given to the ex-NYC/PC Corning Branch by Conrail. A couple years before CR spun off the Geneva Cluster to the Finger Lakes Railway, it sold a portion of the Corning Secondary between Gang Mills, NY and Wellsboro, PA to GROW (Growth Resources of Wellsboro), a gov't agency.
Freight operations on the line are handled by the Wellsboro & Corning, while the passenger excursions are operated under the Tioga Central RR banner. For over a decade, the two operations were separate. Both were purchased by the Myles family (a veterans of RR industry) in 2008, so the distinction between WCOR and TIOC is pretty blurry these days.
WCOR has been a beneficiary of the gas drilling boom in northern PA. Freight operations were conducted with three smaller Alcos when the Myles family took over, but the traffic growth necessitated the purchase of 4 SD40-2s in early 2010. I caught up to a pair of EMDs that summer as they headed north to interchange with NS.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/WCOR08232010/DSC02587.jpg)
Photo taken by me Monday 8/23/2010 in Middlebury Center, PA.
The WCOR local passes through an agribusiness that is a rail customer.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/WCOR08232010/DSC02601.jpg)
Photo taken by me Monday 8/23/2010 in Middlebury Center, PA.
Owing to a flood control project which created the lake in the background, roughly 10 miles of the Corning Secondary was relocated by Conrail in 1977. That created a pretty steep grade (1+%), so the SD40-2s get a serious workout on the northbound trip.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/WCOR08232010/DSC02646.jpg)
Photo taken by me Mon 8/23/2010 in Tioga, PA.
This is where WCOR crosses the NY/PA border.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/WCOR08232010/DSC02686.jpg)
Photo taken by me Mon 8/23/2010 in Lindley, NY.
The Wellsboro & Corning passes through farm country in upstate NY's Southern Tier region.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/WCOR08232010/DSC02702.jpg)
Photo taken by me Mon 8/23/2011 in Lindley, NY.
The Wellsboro & Corning local is just a few miles from interchange with NS at Gang Mills.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/WCOR08232010/DSC02731.jpg)
Photo taken by me Mon 8/23/2010 in Erwin, NY.
It is difficult to see WCOR interchange with NS without trespassing, so I settled for this shot from across the highway. Those NS engines were on the move, so they may have been going interchange with either WCOR or the B&H.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/WCOR08232010/DSC02733.jpg)
Photo taken by me Mon 8/23/2010 in Gang Mills, NY.
The weather in the morning was misty and rainy... but WCOR's southbound trip in the afternoon was under dry skies.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/WCOR08232010/DSC02754.jpg)
Photo taken by me Mon 8/23/2010 in Tioga, PA.
The WCOR SD40-2s' brakes were squealing as they headed down the grade created near Hammond Lake.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/WCOR08232010/DSC02791.jpg)
Photo taken by me Mon 8/23/2010 in Niles Valley, PA.
I hope you enjoyed this visit to the Wellsboro & Corning RR. When I resume this series, we'll look at the transload operation in WCOR's main yard, as well as the Tioga Central's excursion operation... which I have ridden.
Great Pics! Too bad most of what I live near is Class 1's with widecabs! Love short lines!
Quote from: NSMoWandS on December 23, 2011, 03:02:25 PM
Great Pics! Too bad most of what I live near is Class 1's with widecabs! Love short lines!
Thanks! I get to see a little bit of everything here in upstate NY (and northern PA): old, new, EMD, GE and my personal favorite- Alcos!
Speaking of Alcos, the Wellsboro & Corning RR uses a rare Alco RS3u as one of their switchers. On this occasion, #506 had just finished shuffling hoppers at WCOR's transload facility.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/WCOR08232010/DSC02812.jpg)
Phoot taken by me Monday 8/23/2010 at Wellsboro Junction, PA.
Meanwhile, the SD40-2s had been cut off from the consist they'd brought back from NS and were running light into the yard.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/WCOR08232010/DSC02822.jpg)
Photo taken by me Mon 8/23/2010 at Wellsboro Junction, PA.
Here's a good look at the transload facility. Sand is unloaded from hoppers here and taken by truck the gas drilling sites in the area.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/WCOR08232010/DSC02845.jpg)
Photo taken by me Mon 8/23/2010 at Wellsboro Junction, PA.
WCOR will also use their bigger EMDs for switching as necessary.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/WCOR08232010/DSC02881.jpg)
Photo taken by me Mon 8/23/2010 at Wellsboro Junction, PA.
As I left for the day, I could see #506 had been coupled onto a trio of hoppers further up the tracks. These hoppers were also filled with sand, but they were headed for a glass factory in downtown Wellsboro.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/WCOR08232010/DSC02889.jpg)
Photo taken by me Mon 8/23/2010 at Wellsboro Junction, PA.
As I said before, WCOR (freight) and the Tioga Central (passenger) are owned by the Myles family and run on the same tracks. The Alcos are currently the power for TIOC's excursions. In fact, I rode the Sunset Limited excursion just two days before I chased WCOR's freight operations.
The excursions operate pull-pull, a la the Finger Lakes excursions. TIOC often puts Alco S2 #14 on the south end of the train to power the return trips.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/TIOC08212010/DSC02489.jpg)
Photo taken by me Sat 8/21/2011 at Wellsboro Junction, PA.
Alco #506 was at the other end of the train and would pull the train on its outbound trip north.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/TIOC08212010/DSC02496.jpg)
Photo taken by me Sat 8/21/2011 at Wellsboro Junction, PA. The whistle post is a cool remnant from the New York Central era.
Added bonus- this trip was a dinner train. We had excellent staff.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/TIOC08212010/DSC02530.jpg)
Photo taken by me Sat 8/21/2011 at Wellsboro Junction, PA.
Before dinner was served, I could walk to another car and catch glimpses of #506 as we headed north.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/TIOC08212010/DSC02535.jpg)
Photo taken by me Sat 8/21/2011 in Niles Valley, PA.
This was my delicious dinner. The Tioga Central RR serves the best BBQ ribs I've ever eaten. No knife was needed!
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/TIOC08212010/DSC02552.jpg)
Photo taken by me Sat 8/21/2011 in Tioga, PA.
We got a nice look at Hammond Lake during dinner.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/TIOC08212010/DSC02555.jpg)
Photo taken by me Sat 8/21/2011 in Tioga, PA.
Our chef, Shannon, was very friendly- he gladly came out to speak with the appreciative patrons. He was featured in Railfan & Railroad the following month for his culinary skills. BTW, Shannon cooks in a converted baggage car, which is part of the consist.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/TIOC08212010/DSC02557.jpg)
Photo taken by me Sat 8/21/2011 in Tioga, PA.
Here is the 3rd Alco on the Tioga Central, RS1 #62. She is a former Washington Terminal unit, purchased by TIOC in 1988.
(http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/Amtrak_Matt/TIOC09132008/102_102.jpg)
Photo taken by me Saturday 9/13/2008 at Wellsboro Junction, PA.
The dinner trains on the Tioga Central stop north of Hammond Lake before returning southward, but most of the other TIOC excursions stop at the lake so the passengers can enjoy the view.
(http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/Amtrak_Matt/TIOC09132008/039_39-1.jpg)
Photo taken by me Saturday 9/13/2008 in Tioga, PA.
Alco #14 leads the return trip on a drizzly fall day. She was built as #46 for the Buffalo Creek Railway, a joint Erie/Lehigh Valley subsidiary that served the Buffalo waterfront. The S2 was sold after Conrail absorbed BCK and eventually wound up on TIOC circa 1984.
(http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/Amtrak_Matt/TIOC09132008/086_86.jpg)
Photo taken by me Saturday 9/13/2008 at Wellsboro Junction, PA.
Occasionally, the Tioga Central RR will operate the excursion southward into downtown Wellsboro. For an extra charge, passengers can ride in the caboose.
(http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/Amtrak_Matt/Tioga%20Central/045_45.jpg)
Photo taken by me Saturday 9/15/2007 in Wellsboro, PA.
When the excursion runs into downtown Wellsboro, TIOC will bring 2 Alcos (usually #14 and #62) into town separately. An Alco meet is a nice thing to see, IMO.
(http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/Amtrak_Matt/Tioga%20Central/071_71.jpg)
Photo taken by me Saturday 9/15/2007 in Wellsboro. PA.
Number 14 brings a photo freight for the excursion patrons to see.
(http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/Amtrak_Matt/Tioga%20Central/073_73.jpg)
Photo taken by me Saturday 9/15/2007 in Wellsboro, PA.
This old Erie boxcar sits on a siding nearby.
(http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/Amtrak_Matt/Tioga%20Central/077_77.jpg)
Photo taken by me Saturday 9/15/2007 in Wellsboro, PA.
As hinted by a couple of previous photos, TIOC has a couple RS1s that are OOS. I don't know for certain if they're parts donors, but I suspect they're being used to keep #s 62 and 14 running.
(http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/Amtrak_Matt/Tioga%20Central/078_78.jpg)
Photo taken by me Saturday 9/15/2007 in Wellsboro, PA.
Number 506 sits in the TIOC/WCOR on a stormy fall afternoon. She is a former D&H unit. GE rebuilt 10 RS3s with 2000 HP 251 prime movers (an Alco design) for the D&H in 1975. Number 506 escaped the scrapper's torch 12 years later and came to TIOC by virtue of her Bicentennial paint scheme.
(http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/Amtrak_Matt/Tioga%20Central/084_84-1.jpg)
Photo taken by me Sat 9/15/2007 at Wellsboro Junction, PA.
BTW, 2007 was the final year of separate TIOC and WCOR operations before the Myles family bought both of them. Thus there was no transload facility yet.
(http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/Amtrak_Matt/Tioga%20Central/086_86-1.jpg)
Photo tkaen by m Sat 9/15/2007 at Wellsboro Junction, PA.
TIOC also has a former Pennsy caboose.
(http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/Amtrak_Matt/Tioga%20Central/059_59-1.jpg)
Photo taken by me Sat 9/15/2007 at Wellsboro Junction, PA.
Number 14 is coming back to the yard after finishing operations for the day.
(http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/Amtrak_Matt/Tioga%20Central/106_106-1.jpg)
Photo taken by me Saturday 9/15/2007 at Wellsboro Junction, PA.
There will be more to come in the series some time after Christmas.
Last August, I was out on the Southern Tier Mainline to catch the NS OCS. As an added bonus, I was able to spend time with the Owego & Hartford Ry, which is part of the Empire Link. This shortline is a remnant of the Lehigh Valley's Auburn Division. Conrail operated the line until about 1982 or so... and this caboose reflects that heritage.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/Aug%202011/DSC02613.jpg)
Photo taken by me Wed 8/24/2012 in Owego, NY.
The O&H has a wide variety of motive power, with engines from EMD, GE and MLW. Here we see an MLW RS18 and an EMD SW1200 in the yard.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/Aug%202011/DSC02614.jpg)
Photo taken by me Wed 8/24/2011 in Owego, NY.
The O&H yard (ex-LV) sits next to NS's Southern Tier Mainline (ex-Erie/EL). It's amazing to think this sleepy place was a busy interchange point between the Erie/EL, LV and D&H back in its heyday.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/Aug%202011/DSC02615.jpg)
Photo taken by me Wed 8/24/2011 in Owego, NY.
The O&H has a couple of U-boats on the premises. This U23B was the most recent addition to the roster last summer. Number 2211 was damaged just a few days after my visit by flooding from Hurricane Irene, but the O&H has repaired the old GE and put her back in service.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/Aug%202011/DSC02622.jpg)
Photo taken by me Wed 8/24/2011 in Owego, NY.
Here is the other other U23B on the roster, #2302. She and the rest of the O&H loco fleet (except for #2211) was taken to higher ground and escaped damage from Hurricane Irene.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/Aug%202011/DSC02624.jpg)
Photo taken by me Wed 8/24/2011 in Owego, NY.
The O&H offices are in the restored former Lehigh Valley station. It's pretty cool to see a station actually being used for RR business these days.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/Aug%202011/DSC02627.jpg)
Photo taken by me Wed 8/24/2011 in Owego, NY.
There is another RS18 stored in the O&H yard, but this one is privately owned.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/Aug%202011/DSC02636.jpg)
Photo taken by me Wed 8/24/2011 in Owego, NY. There is also a 3rd RS18 and an SW1 on the O&H, but I didn't see them that day. They may have been stored in the engine house or perhaps one of them was making the run to Harford Mills. I do intend to get back to this shortline someday so I can see it in operation.
OK, let's move about 150 miles NOW of Owego and take a look the Rochester & Southern RR. This shortline came into being 26 years ago when GWI (Genesee & Wyoming Industries) took over a former B&O branchline in upstate NY. Today, that route is still active from a connection with NS at Silver Springs north to Rochester. R&S operations came to include the original Genesee & Wyoming mainline, about 10 miles of the DL&W mainline and the old Dansville & Mt. Morris shortline about 10-12 years ago.
Although I'd seen the R&S in operation going back to the late '80s, I photographed it for the first time just a few years ago. On this occasion, the crew of GW-1 was assembling a train at the south end of the Brooks Avenue yard.
(http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/Amtrak_Matt/Jul062009/DSC01519.jpg)
Photo taken by me Mon 7/6/2009 in Chili, NY.
The day started nice and sunny... but storm clouds were a-brewin' as the R&S assembled its unit hopper train that day.
(http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/Amtrak_Matt/Jul062009/DSC01553.jpg)
Photo taken by me Mon 7/6/2009 in Chili, NY.
GW-1 gets ready to depart southward from the Brooks Avenue yard and head for the salt mine in Groveland as a nasty thunderstorm rolled by just a few miles to the north.
(http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/Amtrak_Matt/Jul062009/DSC01574.jpg)
Photo taken by me Mon 7/6/2009 in Chili, NY.
EMD fans will like the Rochester & Southern since (like most GWI Operations) that builder dominates the roster. On that muggy summer day, a matched set of 4 GP40s headed south with a unit train of empty salt hoppers.
(http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/Amtrak_Matt/Jul062009/DSC01587.jpg)
Photo taken by me Mon 7/6/2009 in Chili, NY at the Beahan Road crossing.
The hoppers have crossed Beahan Road and are heading south. Salt is the single biggest commodity hauled by the Rochester & Southern RR today.
(http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/Amtrak_Matt/Jul062009/DSC01592.jpg)
Photo taken by me Mon 7/6/2009 in Chili, NY. I'll share more R&S shots when I resume this series.
Hey Matt, where about in Update, NY are you from? I grew up in Syracuse and currently live in Buffalo. I just moved back to NY last year after living in the Cincinnati area for the past 9 years.
I am usually out and about along the Southern Tier line on the weekends between Buffalo and CP Horn. Sometimes I go as far as Corning, NY. I have tried to check out some of the other short lines in Upstate, NY but haven't seen to much activity on the weekends. Do you know the operating schedules for these lines at all?
-Mike
Hi Mike! I lived in Elmira and Hammondsport during my younger years. Greater Rochester is my current residence.
Here the schedules of the following RRs:
1. Finger Lakes Railway HW2 usually departs Himrod somewhere between 8 and 10 AM. It works south to Watkins Glen and then heads back north to Himrod. Sometimes it will also work north to Penn Yan. It works Monday and Friday, although it can work on other days as needed.
2. Finger Lakes Railway GY1 (the Geneva yard job and local) usually starts work around 7 or 8 AM , although it can start earlier. It normally works Mon-Fri, but it will work weekends on occasion.
3. The Finger Lakes Railway's excursion operations have been bid out to 3rd party contractor for 2012, so I don't know the schedule yet.
4. The Finger Lakes Railway has a local job that works from Geneva to Camandaigua and back on Tuesday and Thursday afternoons.
5. The Wellsboro & Corning local that interchanges with NS usually pulls out of Wellsboro Junction between 8 AM and 9 AM. It arrives at Gang Mills around mid-day and will head southward after interchanging with NS there. This train runs 4-5 days per week, but weekend runs are rare. CAUTION: Gang Mills Yard is very busy these days, so WCOR's departure time in the afternoon can vary quite a bit.
6. The Tioga Central RR's excursion schedule is on their website: http://www.tiogacentral.com/
7. The Rochester & Southern RR has a couple different jobs. GW1 aka "The Salt Shaker" has been departing the Brooks Ave Yard around 2 AM. It heads south to the Groveland salt mine and usually gets back to Brooks Ave around 10 AM. It normally works weekdays only.
8. The Rochester & Southern's turn to Silver Springs departs the Brooks Ave Yard at 2 PM and will return by 10 PM, if the interchange with NS goes smoothly. It normally works weekdays only.
I will add the schedules for other Empire Link shortlines as I include them. Shortlines often change their schedules to suit customer demand and interchange with Class 1s like NS, so what I'm telling you can change without notice. Good luck in your chases.
P.S. I have NO clue what the O&H's schedule is.
Thanks for the info, that is a big help. Are you a Ham operator? If so, are there any repeaters in the area that you or other railfans tend to monitor? My call sign is KY7NSR.
Thanks again,
-Mike
Unfortunately, I'm not a ham radio operator. Sorry about that...
I'm glad to know the information will help you.
Mike, I've been digging through my photo albums for some weekend activity on the Empire Link shortlines. My most recent catch for freight action was back during the fall. After spending part of a soggy afternoon at CP Linden, I was heading back to Rochester when I caught an R&S local.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/Oct%202011/DSC03278.jpg)
Photo taken by me Sat 10/1/2011 in Leroy, NY. The former BR&P/B&O depot in the background is now a very nice restaurant.
This Rochester & Southern local had come down from Brooks Avenue to service a customer. There were a couple of switch moves that crossed Route 19 (Lake Street).
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/Oct%202011/DSC03286.jpg)
Photo taken by me Sat 10/1/2011 in Leroy, NY.
The R&S local shuffles cars on a customer's spur.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/Oct%202011/DSC03296.jpg)
Photo taken by me Sat 10/1/2011 in Leroy, NY.
The switching moves are over, so the R&S local crosses Wright Street as it departs.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/Oct%202011/DSC03318.jpg)
Photo taken by me Saturday 10/1/2011 in Leroy, NY.
This train has a common power combination used on the R&S, B&P and other GWI lines- a 1st generation Geep and a 1500 HP EMD switcher.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/Oct%202011/DSC03322.jpg)
Photo taken by me Saturday 10/1/2011 in Leroy, NY.
The R&S local heads out of town by crossing an old B&O/BR&P bridge.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/Oct%202011/DSC03330.jpg)
Photo taken by me Saturday 10/1/2011 in Leroy, NY.
This location is another example of a sleepy village that used to be a bustling RR community. An Erie/EL branchline and a NYC/PC/CR branchline used to run right behind the spot where I stood... and the Lehigh Valley mainline crossed the north side of town, as well.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/Oct%202011/DSC03333.jpg)
Photo taken by me Saturday 10/1/2011 in Leroy, NY.
The R&S local heads up the former B&O 4th Sub on the return trip to Brooks Avenue Yard.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/Oct%202011/DSC03361.jpg)
Photo taken by me Saturday 10/1/2011 in Chili, NY.
The Rochester & Southern local crosses Beahan Road.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/Oct%202011/DSC03363.jpg)
Photo taken by me Saturday 10/1/2011 in Chili, NY.
The R&S local heads into Brooks Avenue Yard. There was no sign of any other activity here, so I left shorty after the train passed.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/Oct%202011/DSC03370.jpg)
Photo taken by me Saturday 10/1/2011 in Chili, NY. I'll try to find more weekend shortline activity as time permits.
Hey Matt,
Thanks for sharing those photos. I'll keep my eye out and ears on the scanner while I am out and about on the weekends.
Thanks,
-Mike
I'm not done yet! ;D
There is more to share from upstate NY. One of the more unusual trains on I've seen on the Rochester & Southern is this windmill train parked at Brook Avenue Yard. The blades and shaft were assembled at a plant in Dansville (NY). Later that day, they were sent down to Silver Springs for interchange with Norfolk Southern.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/June%202011/DSC01355.jpg)
Photo taken by me Monday 6/13/2011 in Chili, NY.
Wait a minute... what's creeping in towards the "windmill" train?
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/June%202011/DSC01364.jpg)
Photo taken by me Monday 6/13/2011 in Chili, NY.
Answer: the Livonia, Avon & Lakeville RR local is making a reverse move into the R&S yard. A pair of Alcos was shoving the consist.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/June%202011/DSC01368.jpg)
Photo taken by me Monday 6/13/2011 in Chili, NY.
So... here's the story about the LA&L. They are a great and early example of a shortline taking over tracks spun off by a Class 1. The LA&L was founded in 1964 to purchase and operate a segment of the former Erie Rochester Division that was facing potential abandonment by the Erie Lackawanna. The LA&L ran excursions until the late '70s- I actually rode their trains 3 times in 1976 and '77. After the excursions ended, the freight traffic began to grow... which necessitated the purchase of this Alco C425 (ex-NH/PC/CR) in 1981.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/June%202011/DSC01414.jpg)
Photo taken by me Monday 6/13/2011 in Chili, NY.
Speaking of Conrail, the LA&L expanded in 1996 by purchasing more of the ex-Erie Rochester Division and about 3-4 miles of the former Lehigh Valley Rochester Branch. This led to the purchase of #420 and several other Alco Centuries. Here we see #420 leading the LA&L across Jefferson Road on the former LV.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/Dec%202011/DSC04242.jpg)
Photo taken by me Friday 12/16/2011 in Henrietta, NY.
The Livonia, Avon & Lakeville RR currently has 2 interchange points. This location is Genesee Junction, where the LA&L interchanges with CSX.
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Photo taken by me Fri 11/2/2007 in Chili, NY.
After the LA&L expanded in 1996, interchange was exclusively with Conrail at Genesee Junction. Back in its heyday, the NYC, Lehigh Valley, B&O and Pennsy swapped cars there.
As a condition of the LA&L accepting the CR split in 1999, it was granted trackage rights on the Rochester & Southern to access Brooks Avenue Yard. Here we see an LA&L shove move on the R&S.
(http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/Amtrak_Matt/LALonNov2nd2007/043_43.jpg)
Photot take by me 11/2/2007 in Chili, NY.
So... how does Norfolk Southern fit into the picture? The R&S acts as a bridge carrier between NS and the LA&L. A couple of interestings facts:
1. The Rochester & Southern is using part of the former B&O 4th Sub to connect with NS in order to compete against CSX for interchange traffic with the LA&L!
2. The LA&L is one of 2 shortlines in the Empire Link which doesn't connect directly with NS. The other is the Ontario Central RR.
Here we see #420 and #425 running light as they leave Brooks Avenue Yard on a beautiful spring day.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/June%202011/DSC01375.jpg)
Photo taken by me Mon 6/13/2011 in Chili, NY. The LA&L family of shortlines are among my favorite shortlines to chase. I'll share more more shots as time permits.
While #420 and #425 are the LA&L locomotives I've seen most often over the past 16 years, there are other Alcos on the LA&L.
For example, C425 #428 was paired with #425 earlier this winter.
(http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/Amtrak_Matt/Jan%202012/DSC04424.jpg)
Photo taken by me Monday 1/16/2012 in Henrietta, NY.
Number 428 crosses Lehigh Station Road, which is actually crossed twice by the LA&L. I'll explain the other crossing at another time.
(http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/Amtrak_Matt/Jan%202012/DSC04426.jpg)
Photo taken by me Monday 1/16/2012 in Henrietta, NY.
It was pretty cool to see a pair of Alco C425s operating together. I think the last time I saw that would've been been the latter days of the Erie Lackawanna (when I was a kid).
(http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/Amtrak_Matt/Jan%202012/DSC04472.jpg)
Photo taken by me Monday 1/16/2012 in Chili, NY.
The Livonia, Avon & Lakeville RR's shops also works on Alcos for two affiliated shortlines- the Bath & Hammondsport RR and the Western New York & Pennsylvania RR. This former NYC C430 had several trial runs on the LA&L before being sent to the WNYP.
(http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/Amtrak_Matt/LAL0209/003_3.jpg)
Photo taken by me Monday 2/16/2009 in Henrietta, NY.
Number 432 operates on "home rails" for a short distance. This ROW is part of the former NYC West Shore which connects the former LV Rochester Branch with Genesee Junction.
(http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/Amtrak_Matt/LAL0209/015_15.jpg)
Photo taken by me Monday 2/16/2009 in Henrietta, NY. I hope y'all are enjoying this pictorial. I'll share even more shots as time permits.
The Livonia, Avon & Lakeville RR has a couple of interesting customers. The first one we'll look at is Matthews & Fields Lumber. Their siding is located at the south end of the Mortimer Industrial Track, which is a remnant of LV's Rochester Branch. Speaking of the Lehigh Valley, Matthews & Fields has been receiving shipments by rail since at least the late 1960s.
Last spring, I caught the LA&L local servicing Matthews & Fields. The train is crossing Lehigh Station Road. Now you know how this road got its name- the depot used to be on the other side of the tracks.
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Photo taken by me Moday 6/13/2011 in Henrietta, NY.
The Alcos shove the boxcars up the spur. They are passing a feed mill that rarely gets rail shipments.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/June%202011/DSC01431.jpg)
Photo taken by me Monday 6/13/2011 in Henrietta, NY.
The boxcars are being shoved into the lumber yard. BTW, the Rochester & Southern RR occasionally services another Matthews & Fields spur in the City of Rochester, but this location gets most of the shipments.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/June%202011/DSC01433.jpg)
Photo taken by me Monday 6/13/2011 in Henrietta, NY.
Unlike the ex-Lehigh Valley branch, the spur itself lacks lights or gates where it crosses Lehigh Station Road. Therefore, the LA&L usually has an additional crewman protect the crossing with the MOW truck when the local switches Matthews & Fields.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/June%202011/DSC01437.jpg)
Photo taken by me Monday 6/13/2011 in Henrietta, NY.
The ex-LV branch has another interesting crossing at Route 15. This road is a busy 4 lane highway near a mall, so traffic lights are used to control both the highway traffic and the railroad. The engineer in #420 must wait for a green light before he can proceed.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/June%202011/DSC01441.jpg)
Photo taken by me Monday 6/13/2011 in Henrietta, NY.
LA&L #420 heads across Route 15. The local uses this branch 1 or 2 day per week, so catching this trip was a rare treat for me.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/June%202011/DSC01442.jpg)
Photo taken by me Monday 6/13/2011 in Henrietta, NY. When I resume this series, we'll head south on the Livonia, Avon & Lakeville RR.
Before heading southward, let's take a quick look a couple moethings at the north end of the LA&L. This center beam flat car is getting pushed into the R&S yard by the LA&L local. The Matthews & Fields lumber traffic comes in from Norfolk Southern via the R&S.
(http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/Amtrak_Matt/Jan%202012/DSC04467.jpg)
Photo taken by me Monday 1/16/2012 in Chili, NY.
This the CSX local that interchanges with the LA&L at Genesee Junction.
(http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/Amtrak_Matt/LAL0209/056_56.jpg)
Photo taken by me Mon 2/16/2009 in Chili, NY.
On the other side of the Genesee River, CSX and the LA&L run side by side for a couple miles. The bridge over the river makes a good photo location.
(http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/Amtrak_Matt/LAL0209/106_106.jpg)
Photo taken by Monday 2/16/2009 in Henrietta, NY.
Heading southward, the LA&L uses a connecting track (built by CR circa 1979) to move from the former LV to the ex-Erie Rochester Division. The local usually runs non-stop until it reaches Avon, where several customers are located. The former Erie yard there sees switching action 4-6 days per week, including some weekend drills.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/Dec%202011/DSC04302.jpg)
Photo taken by me Saturday 12/16/2011 in the Village of Avon, NY.
The former Erie depot next to the LA&L yard is now a restaurant.
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Photo taken by me Friday 12/18/2011 in the Village of Avon, NY.
Of all the places I railfan, no other place makes me as hungry watching trains as Avon does. Why is that? The Livonia, Avon & Lakeville RR's excellent service attracted Barilla Pasta 5 years ago. The vicinity of the plant smells like a giant bowl of noodles. Yum!!!
Here we see the LA&L Alcos getting ready to pull a string of empty hoppers out of Barilla's facility.
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Photo taken by me Mon 6/13/2011 in the Village of Avon, NY.
In addition to Barilla, the LA&L also services King Kole Bean, Kraft's Kool Whip plant and a couple other customers in Avon. When the switching chores are done, the crew reassembles the local and heads out.
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Photo taken by me Friday 12/16/2011 in the Village of Avon, NY.
The LA&L local heads southbound on the old Erie. The main yard is a few miles away in Lakeville, which I'll share when I resume this series.
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Photo taken by me Friday 12/16/2011 in the Village of Avon, NY.
As promised, here is a look at the main yard and engine shops of the Livonia, Avon & Lakeville RR. This is located on what was a minor branchline back in the Erie era. The management of the LA&L deserves alot of credit for not only keeping local business shipping by rail but actually growing it substantially. The LA&L is busy enough to warrant a yard switcher at this location. Switching duties are often handled by Alco S2 #72.
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Photo taken by me Fri 4/25/2008 in Lakeville, NY.
Several ex-Green Bay & Western C424ms are in storage next to the engine house. They were originally C424s built for EL and the Pennsy circa 1963, and subsequently rebuilt by GE for the Delaware & Hudson RR in 1980.
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Photo taken by me Fri 4/25/2008 in Lakeville, NY.
It's upstate NY, so there is a big wedge snow plow on hand for tough winter weather.
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Photo taken by me Fri 4/25/2008 in Lakeville, NY.
The LA&L also has a transfer caboose in the yard.
(http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/Amtrak_Matt/Apr25th2008/047_47.jpg)
Photo taken by me Fri 4/25/2008 in Lakeville, NY.
There were also locomotives getting some TLC in the shop. This was the first occasion where I saw WNYP #432.
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Photo taken by me Friday 4/25/2008 in Lakeville, NY.
C425 #428 was there, as well... but she still had her old number at the time.
(http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/Amtrak_Matt/Apr25th2008/054_54.jpg)
Photo taken by me Friday 4/25/2008 in Lakeville, NY.
While I was there, #425 and #420 returned light after shuffling cars in Avon.
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Photo taken by me Friday 4/25/2008 in Lakeville, NY.
The big Centuries back into the engine house. Their work was done for the weekend.
(http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/Amtrak_Matt/Apr25th2008/077_77.jpg)
Photo taken by me Friday 4/25/2008 in Lakeville, NY. In my next installment, we'll take a look at a sister shortline of the LA&L.
In 1996, the LA&L won a bid from the Steuben County Industrial Development Agency to operate the Bath & Hammondsport RR. The B&H began as a 9 mile shortline between its namesake towns in 1875. Its operations expanded to include the western end of the former EL Wayland Branch in April, 1976. The B&H expanded again in 2001 by leasing the Bath Secondary (eastern end of the Wayland Branch) from Norfolk Southern.
Because most of the original B&H was embargoed in mid 1990s, the B&H built a new engine house on the old Wayland Branch. After the 2001 expansion, the LA&L sent big Alco Centuries down to the B&H.
(http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/Amtrak_Matt/057_57.jpg)
Photo taken by me Thursday 8/23/2007 in Cohocton, NY.
Like the LA&L, the B&H works on locomotives for the WNYP. During one of my visits, B&H engineer Randy Brewer got this C424 running.
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Photo taken by me Thursday 8/23/2007 in Cohocton, NY.
One of the B&H's C424ms was idling outside the emgine house, as well. This Century is a former EL unit, so she is on home rails.
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Photo taken by me Thursday 8/23/2007 in Cohocton, NY.
A small fleet of MLW 636s were also in the yard. The B&H would eventually restore most of them for the WNYP, as well.
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Photo taken by me Thu 8/23/2007 in Cohocton, NY.
Engineer Randy Brewer and Conductor Warren Edsall took a couple of Centuries on a test run that day.
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Photo taken by me Thu 8/23/2007 in Cohocton, NY.
This is a side view of one of the M636s in the B&H yard. I really do have to get down to the WNYP and see the M636s in action.
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Photo taken by me Thu 8/23/2007 in Cohocton, NY.
One of the C424s being tested was later moved to a siding. Both this unit and #4223 are on the WNYP now.
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Photo taken by me Thu 8/23/2007 in Cohocton, NY. When I resume this series, we'll take a look at the longest serving locomotives on the B&H.
I love that part of PA and NY STATE! Use too haul feed in that area.
Quote from: steveiez on March 13, 2012, 10:24:19 PM
I love that part of PA and NY STATE! Use too haul feed in that area.
I grew up in the Southern Tier of upstate NY so I know what you mean. My early years were spent in Elmira... and then my family to moved Hammondsport in the spring of 1976. Although I saw the former EL (and LV) less frequently, I got to see RRing in a very close and personal way... courtesy of the Bath & Hammondsport RR. The shortline had just Alco S1s for power back in the day. They are still owned by the RR now, making #4 and #5 the longest serving locomotives on the B&H.
Here is #4 sitting on a siding, on a beautiful summer day.
(http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/Amtrak_Matt/070_70.jpg)
Photo taken by me Friday 7/6/2007 in Cohocton, NY.
The original mainline of the B&H has been silent since its main customer (Taylor Winery) shut down in 1995.
Back in happier days, B&H #5 enters the waterfront yard at the northern end of the line. The man who owned the B&H at the time was the late Stan Clark (RIP). He was restoring several coaches for an excursion service that began operating a couple years later.
(http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/Amtrak_Matt/ps_2011_05_07___11_14_02.jpg)
Photo taken by me Monday 5/20/1991 in the Village of Hammondsport, NY.
Even though though these old shots aren't as good as my more recent endeavors, I'm glad I took them. This portion of the B&H was abandoned in 1997 and the rails were removed recently.
(http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/Amtrak_Matt/ps_2011_05_07___11_16_13.jpg)
Photo taken by me Monday 5/20/1991 in the Village of Hammondsport, NY.
B&H #5 enters the engine house, which still stands today. It may become part of a proposed waterfront park.
The Alcos S1s were acquired during the summer of 1970. Number 4 is ex-NKP/N&W, while #5 is ex-NYC/PC.
(http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/Amtrak_Matt/ps_2011_05_07___11_18_11.jpg)
Photo taken by me Monday 5/20/1991 in the Village of Hammondsport, NY. We'll return to the modern version of the B&H when I resume this series.
I've posted some pictures of the modern Bath & Hammondsport RR over in the trip sharing subforum, because the B&H does interchange with NS at Painted Post, NY. However, there is at least one B&H chase which I haven't shared yet because I didn't see the B&H local (WACH-1) interchange with Norfolk Southern that day.
The trip started on a frosty fall morning at the B&H engine house. A pair of former EL C424ms were warming up outside of the engine house.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/Oct%202011/DSC03833.jpg)
Photo taken by me Fri 10/28/2011 in Cohocton, NY.
There had been snowfall in parts of the Finger Lakes that night, as evidenced by an employee's truck. However, the pavement in the Southern Tier was dry.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/Oct%202011/DSC03835.jpg)
Photo taken by me Fri 10/28/2011 in Cohocton, NY.
Most of the C636s have been restored to running condition and sent of over to the affiliated WNYP... but there were still a couple of the six axle Centuries on the property. One of them (seen behind #4) will probably become a parts donor, while her sister might rejoin the others on the WNYP.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/Oct%202011/DSC03847.jpg)
Photo taken by me Fri 10/28/2011 in Cohocton, NY.
The B&H C424ms have picked up a few tank cars and are headed eastward through the Cohocton River valley.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/Oct%202011/DSC03868.jpg)
Photo taken by me Friday 10/28/2011 in Avoca, NY.
Much of the active section of the B&H, including this area, is part of the former Lackawanna mainline.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/Oct%202011/DSC03871.jpg)
Photo taken by me Friday 10/28/2011 in Avoca, NY.
This is a railhead view of the ROW, as seen from the Babcock Hollow Road crossing.
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Photo taken by me Friday 10/28/2011 in the Town of Bath, NY.
B&H WACH-1 approaches Babcock Hollow Road.
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Photo taken by me Friday 10/28/2011 in the Town of Bath, NY.
WACH-1 picked up more tank cars from a natural gas distributor and is approaching Eagle Valley Road.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/Oct%202011/DSC03904.jpg)
Photo taken by me Friday 10/28/2011 in the Town of Bath, NY.
The tail end of the B&H local crosses Eagle Valley Road.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/Oct%202011/DSC03912.jpg)
Photo taken by me Friday 10/28/2011 in the Town of Bath, NY.
WACH-1 crosses County Route 333 on former EL iron.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/Oct%202011/DSC03920.jpg)
Photo taken by me Friday 10/28/2011 in Campbell, NY.
This section of the B&H was originally part of the Erie Rochester Division. The crew normally stops WACH-1 here.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/Oct%202011/DSC03929.jpg)
Photo taken by me Friday 10/28/2011 in Painted Post, NY.
The Centuries have been uncoupled and are running light next to Chemung Street.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/Oct%202011/DSC03933.jpg)
Photo taken by me Friday 10/28/2011 in Painted Post, NY.
The crew of the B&H local WACH-1 and the Alcos wait for the signal from Norfolk Southern to proceed to Gang Mills.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/Oct%202011/DSC03936.jpg)
Photo taken by me Friday 10/28/2011 in Painted Post, NY.
I left before the B&H interchanged with NS that day. This was my final shot of WACH-1.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/Oct%202011/DSC03954.jpg)
Photo taken by me Friday 10/28/2011 in Painted Post, NY. It may be a while, but I will eventually post pictures of the LA&L's and B&H's sister shortline, the Western New York & Pennsylvania RR (WNYP). I hope everyone is enjoying this series.
Quote from: Matt L on January 24, 2012, 07:33:32 PM
Here is the other other U23B on the roster, #2302. She and the rest of the O&H loco fleet (except for #2211) was taken to higher ground and escaped damage from Hurricane Irene.
(http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab139/Erielackawanna/Aug%202011/DSC02624.jpg)
Photo taken by me Wed 8/24/2011 in Owego, NY.
Going, going, gone! The Owego & Hartford has sold both of their MLW RS18s (including #1811 seen here) to the Livonia, Avon & Lakeville RR short line family. The pair of RS18s have already been renumbered 416 and 417. They were delivered to Norfolk Southern at Owego on March 15th and were later dropped off at WNYP connection in Hornell. There is conjecture as to whether the RS18s will be assigned to the WNYP or the B&H, but I don't have a clear answer yet.