What if's

[lwjabo]

I'm not much of a player of the game what if but lets try it. Southern did not want to merge but they saw it coming. They talked of buying the ICG. What they did not like was all the branch lines. It would have made a few places dry up if it did happen. The CHO&TP north of the Louisville cut off would have dried up. Sending every thing out toward St.Louis. It would have made a main line from Birmingham to Chicago. A connection around Sheffield. The old IC line that is now gone from Birmingham would have a few trains on it. Memphis also would be a bit busier. A strait line from Mobile and New Orleans to St. Louis and Chicago. Another deal Southern tried was to buy Conrail but Congress prevented that. I never understood that deal. Saved the tax payers money and note Conrail is now gone and it was divided. There was talk of buying the DelMar lines. They would take the cars across to the eastern shore from Norfolk as I understood it. So the eastern part of the original NS might still be working instaed of gone. Well two brothers who both were CEO's of N&W and the other of Southern merged there two company's instead. Add your two cents.

[Ponce de Leon]

The first Conrail deal fell through because the purchase price was far less than what Conrail was actually worth. The later deal---with NS and CSX splitting it---fetched more cash (of course Conrail was private by then).

Those are some interesting observations. Yes, the IC merger talk was fairly serious at one time. It would have brought a number of changes.

[E.M. Bell]

I can remember hanging around the Lawrenceburg depot in the late 80's, and my RR buddies talking about (with much concern and seriousness) that the Danville KY to St. Louis line was going to be sold to the BN.

At that time, BN had a crude intermodal facility in Louisville at the ICG yard (now the PAL), and ran 3 or 4 trackage rights trains a day from there, over the Southern to Centrailia IL, and maybe even to St. Louis. Being a kid, I didn't know much about that sort of thing, other than the fact my buddies seemed to be rather concerned about that, and their jobs. Needless to say, it never happened, but what if?

[tq-07fan]

How about the Monon? Clearly the only reason L & N bought it was so the Southern didn't.

Jim

[Ponce de Leon]

Well....that's a bona fide fact. The L&N had acquired the eastern side of the C&EI in 1969, so the Monon was hardly necessary to reach Chicago. Today, the Monon is gone as a through route, and the L&N's side of the C&EI is humming with trains, since it's a major corridor between Chicago and the South.

So yes, there was no way the L&N was going to allow the SR its own route into Chicago, so it snapped up the Monon in 1971.

[lwjabo]

Train 123 that went to Macon was always called the Monon even though the L&N owned it. Was always a big train. For many years it was radio. No one wanted to catch it south from Chattanooga (DeButts) because it was hard to handle at times and was a pain to put away at Inman.

[Ponce de Leon]

The downside of using radio on non-coal trains was the enormous size of some trains. They were a pain to put together at the initial terminal, and a pain to double, or even triple over at a receiving yard. Along the way they might be non-clearing, so they tended to tie up the railroad (unless there were long stretches of double track). At some point, the efficiencies of running radio trains were eaten up by initial and final terminal overtime, plus line of road delays.

Until the day D.W. Brosnan retired (or WAS retired, I should say), there was a daily Spartanburg-Asheville radio train called the "thousand legs." It was powered by mostly older four-motor units----several of them, in fact. This thing would break in two almost every trip and wouldn't clear any siding on the line. On the day "Bros" was canned, as soon as they knew it was official, the division superintendent called the yardmaster at Spartanburg.

"Is the 'thousand leg' out of the yard yet?"

"No sir...they're makin' the brake test right now."

"Tie him down immediately and we'll run two trains instead."

This monster had to triple Saluda each trip, by the way---so every operating employee on the division hated the 'thousand leg.'

[lwjabo]

Train 150 and 151 were often over 3 miles long. If so they could only meet on double track. The only double track between Atlanta and Chattanooga were Citco Jct to Ooltewah and between Bolton and Austell. If both were to long to fit in the longest siding which was at Forrestville 150 stayed at Austell till 151 cleared. That was at least four hours.

[E.M. Bell]

Radio trains where pretty much a staple of a young railfans life, where I grew up on the former Western Div. We had several sets of trains that ran radio every day...160-161 111-112, 123-124, and a couple of coal trains a day. I just wish I had taken more pictures of the mid-trains and cracker boxes. Just like anything else, they seemed to always be there, and I guess I figured they always would be.

Back then, they seem to run a few less trains a day through here, but the ones that ran where always monsters. Now, the NS is using DP's on a couple of the intermodals, but its just not the same. Still amazes me how much stuff was in a crackerbox to control the slave units, and now its all in one little compact box in the nose of almost every engine..

[Ptrainman]

Still amazes me how much stuff was in a crackerbox to control the slave units, and now its all in one little compact box in the nose of almost every engine..

That the unfortunate result of progress. Now NS also has the wonderful ECP system for coal train, that is a pain in the butt.


Paul

[E.M. Bell]

ECP is just like any new techno stuff, still being developed, tested, and all the bugs worked out.

Having handled a few big trains myself (and no dynamics, running with a 24RL or H6 automatic for the most part...anybody remember those?? ), I would give a $1.50 for the chance to run a ECP train. If they handle like they are supposed to, it would be a dream to run (and like anything else, if its not working right, pretty much a nightmare)

we seem to be straying from the topic a bit here, but good discussion in any case!

[lwjabo]

Lets get this strait. Those Radio trains were a pain in the you know where. When things went wrong they really went wrong. I remember a train setting in a siding for two days. They kept sending relief crews and would never turn a wheel. Finally they told the Conductor to walk up and cut ahead of the radio's and put a flag in it. and took it to Inman. They sent a crew out with another engine and coupled to the radio and MU every thing. Then took it to Inman. I remember the trainmaster asking me what I thought about that. I asked why they did not do that two days ago. I was brand new. He looked at me and for a minute I thought he was going to relieve me on the spot. Loose a signal and the radio units kept doing what ever there last signal was. Often the air had a trigger. If the rear unit and cars were 1 pound above the head units the brakes shot ever time.
The cracker box was a bit more simple. It had a radio for the train and one for anyone who had to be on it. There were brakes and a big block of concrete to give the car weight. One of the last trains I had with radio units we had a caboose and were down to 3 men. The engineer behind the console and I rode the radio units and my brakeman rode the cab. The radio unit kept going dead. You can't crank them from the head end. Those coal trains from UP and BNSF seldom gave us trouble. Then again the equipemnt was brand new.

[Ponce de Leon]

For those who might read magazines (dead tree media), I wrote a short piece in the September 2010 issue of Trains Magazine titled "Distributed Power's Wonder Years." It's just two pages, but it hits the high spots of Southern's, L&N's, N&W's and C&O's experiences with mid-train remotes in the '60s.

[Batman]

Heres a big ole radio train coming by jersey in the early 80`s , TVRM was just starting
contruction at Grand Jct.

[Ponce de Leon]

This is the very first radio train on the (then) Appalachia District in January 1966. The location is "Dip Crossing," a very accident-prone grade crossing with two-lane U.S.23 at the small community of Harvey, VA. Since the early '70s it's been a four lane overhead bridge here.

The guy standing out front is Tom Gurley, who was later VP of Stations and Terminals for SR, and retired as NS's GM, Northern Region. At the time he was GM of the Interstate Railroad. In between he was superintendent at Andover, Atlanta (Georgia Division) and Birmingham (Crescent Division).

You can see the slaves back over the field in the background. Extra 3003 East is coming down a 1.6 percent grade into Jasper. Even today, CSX and NS engineers have been known to let 'em get away a little bit on this grade.

[Ponce de Leon]

Here's another pairing of my shots. This is an eastbound radio train in 1984 just above Natural Tunnel. By then, any time I saw a train pass that did NOT have an NS-painted unit in the consist, I went after it with camera in hand. Before long, though, the horse just overwhelmed everything.

[lwjabo]

Tom Gurley who was originally from Dallas Georgia was Superintendant of the Georgia when I hired out. The story I heard is he went to Georgia Tech and a guy he met there father was the owner of the Interstate. When he graduated he got a job with them. When Southern came a calling they put Gurley in charge of negotiating the sale and he put his name on the contract that he had to be hired. Note he was blind in one eye and had a glass eye. The story is he lost it in a hunting accident as a kid. One man I knew who was ran the Jordan Spreader said he was sent up to work on the Interstate after the deal. Had to show them how to use a xtie kicker. They were trying to man handle the ties when it jammed. Mr. Gurley thanked him as he was ruining a shirt ever day they used it. The kicker idea was great when it worked. You might unload a car in less than a hour and the next take most of the day.

[Ponce de Leon]

Your information on Gurley is essentially correct. He was one of my mentors when I was a young man, and was the primary person who guided me into the management training program. He and his wife came to my retirement dinner three years ago. He now lives in Alpharetta, GA.