NS Rules for meeting/passing passenger trains

[NS145]

Under NS' current operating rules are freight trains required to come to a complete stop before being passed by a  passenger train on an adjacent track (or vice versa)? 

Amtrak runs 10 trains a day thru Springfield, IL on a short stretch of NS track and the dispatchers instruct either an Amtrak train or freight to come to a complete stop before a meet occurs.  In other cases the dispatchers actually stop freight trains before they would be in a position to be on an adjacent track when an Amtrak train passes. 

This is all well and good for a single track NS line with only 20 trains a day, but what about the former Pennsy mainline across Pennsylvania?  Do these rules apply there as well with the heavy volume of freight traffic and multiple main tracks?  Seems to me like that could create quite a mess.

[Backyard]

  CSX in Central Florida in the 1990's was required to give  a 45 minute window to Amtrak ahead as well as behind movements.

[jcmark4501]

When I rode the NS Steam Excursions and we met freight trains on double track, there was no slowing down of either train that I recall. There was usually a dispatcher's message stating "when passing the steam special the bell must be rung and the horn to be sounded" or something to that effect. That was mostly to warn the people in the vestibules to stick their heads back inside.

[JCagle]

I'm not aware of any such rule. The dispatcher that just retired here would give Amtrak a 30 minute window ahead if he could, but that was his personal preference.

[NS145]

It must be a special instruction applicable only on the Illinois Division.  The first time I heard of it was last December when NS was running their "Santa Train" shuttle from Decatur to Niantic and back using the Monticello & Sangamon Valley's Wabash F7/CN FPA4 trainset.  Any time the passenger special met a freight train (which was quite often as freight traffic was pretty heavy that day), the dispatcher always made sure that either the special or the freight train was completely stopped before the other train could pass by on an adjacent track.  A short time later I noticed the same restrictions being used in Springfield between Iles and Hazel Dell, where a short portion of the UP's ex-GM&O Chicago-St. Louis mainline is controlled by the NS dispatcher. 

Obviously, the intent is to minimize the potential damage of a side swipe accident to a passenger train.  Given the relatively small amount of passenger traffic on the Illinois Division, it is interesting that they are so paranoid about it.   

[TB4JY]

This is true.  It is a bulletin.  Not a rule.  Not just Illinois. ;D

ITEM I-B-15                                                     
                                                                 
Item III-#12 of Operation's Bulletin Number 001, dated January 1,
2007 is hereby cancelled.                                       
                                                                 
Effective immediately, Train Dispatchers must maintain at least 
one unoccupied block ahead of the block that a passenger train is
occupying.                                                       
                                                                 
Until a train or engine meeting or opposing a passenger train is
stopped and the Engineer advises the Train Dispatcher that the   
movement is stopped, the Train Dispatcher must not authorize the
passenger train to enter the block of the meeting point.  After 
the Engineer notifies the Train Dispatcher that the train is   
stopped, the train must not be moved until the passenger train 
passes.                                                         
                                                               
The Train Dispatcher will notify the Engineer of a train or     
engine when his/her movement is following a passenger train. The
following train or engine must not occupy the same block as the
passenger train or have overlapping limits with the passenger   
train.                                                         
                                                               
Exception: The restriction does not apply to:                   
    1.  Meets between passenger trains                         
    2.  Passenger trains when stopped to meet other trains and 
         engines                                           
    3.  Passenger trains operated on the Chicago Line           
    4.  Trains equipped with operative cab signals operating in 
         Cab Signal System (CSS) territory                   

To answer your original question......  On the North East Corridor, they use Cab Signals.  So no need to stop up there.  It falls within exception #4.

[NS145]

This is true.  It is a bulletin.  Not a rule.  Not just Illinois. ;D

ITEM I-B-15                                                     
                                                                 
Item III-#12 of Operation's Bulletin Number 001, dated January 1,
2007 is hereby cancelled.                                       
                                                                 
Effective immediately, Train Dispatchers must maintain at least 
one unoccupied block ahead of the block that a passenger train is
occupying.         
                                             
                                                                 
Until a train or engine meeting or opposing a passenger train is
stopped and the Engineer advises the Train Dispatcher that the   
movement is stopped, the Train Dispatcher must not authorize the
passenger train to enter the block of the meeting point.  After 
the Engineer notifies the Train Dispatcher that the train is   
stopped, the train must not be moved until the passenger train 
passes.                                                         
                                                               
The Train Dispatcher will notify the Engineer of a train or     
engine when his/her movement is following a passenger train. The
following train or engine must not occupy the same block as the
passenger train or have overlapping limits with the passenger   
train.                                                         
                                                               
Exception: The restriction does not apply to:                   
    1.  Meets between passenger trains                         
    2.  Passenger trains when stopped to meet other trains and 
         engines                                           
    3.  Passenger trains operated on the Chicago Line           
    4.  Trains equipped with operative cab signals operating in 
         Cab Signal System (CSS) territory                   

To answer your original question......  On the North East Corridor, they use Cab Signals.  So no need to stop up there.  It falls within exception #4.

That's the answer I was looking for.  Thanks!  Now I can run my Springfield/Hannibal District dispatching simulator in true prototypical fashion.  I was just making a wild guess about it being a special requirement on the Illinois Division since no one else seemed to have encountered this situation on the NS.  :-[

Exception #3 is interesting.  I thought Conrail had installed/maintained cab signalling on the ex-NYC route to Chicago.  I'll have to look that up in my 1990's era Conrail timetable.

[TB4JY]

I don't know the lines up there in Chicago, so your guess would be as good as mine.  I just know what we do down here.  As for the reason for doing this......  I have no idea.  They never told us why.  Just told us to do it.  Like robots...  "We will comply".

[NS145]

Checked on the ex-NYC Chicago Line.  According to CR Dearborn Division Timetable No. 1 dated January 15, 1989, the Chicago Line from Berea, OH to Chicago had no cab signalling.  It was all Rule 261 TCS territory.  Thus, the necessity of Exception #3.

[NS145]

Interesting to consider that if Metrolink enforced the NS bulletin instructions the catastrophic accident in LA would most likely have been averted, as the Metrolink dispatcher would have had to confirm that the passenger train was stopped at the meeting point before lining the UP local into the siding.  The engineer busy with the radio conversations with the dispatcher would have found it very hard to continue his text messaging and would have been forced to stop his train before fouling the siding switch.   Maybe NS knows what they're doing after all.  I know: shocking!    

[JCagle]

Interesting take on that which would be correct by my observations, but after all the people in California know everything and don't need help. The safety side of NS doesn't like to take a lot of risks.

[Michael Knight]

Interesting to consider that if Metrolink enforced the NS bulletin instructions the castastropic accident in LA would most likely have been averted, as the Metrolink dispatcher would have had to confirm that the passenger train was stopped at the meeting point before lining the UP local into the siding.  The engineer busy with the radio conversations with the dispatcher would have found it very hard to continue his text messaging and would have been forced to stop his train before fouling the siding switch.   Maybe NS knows what they're doing after all.  I know: shocking!    

Speaking of Metrolink, a Metrolink train collided with a BNSF freight this morning in CA. No injuries, but the line was shut down for quite some time.

[JCagle]

There goes that whopping 60 days without an accident banner outside the Metrolink office.

[TB4JY]

people in California know everything

As a person from California, I'll say the same for people from North Carolina.

[JCagle]

Are you sure you aren't confusing people FROM NC with people that moved here?

[TB4JY]

Are you sure you aren't confusing people FROM NC with people that moved here?

I don't know.......  Which are you?

[NS145]

Anybody out there want to "volunteer" for a ride on Metrolink?     

[JCagle]

Are you sure you aren't confusing people FROM NC with people that moved here?

I don't know.......  Which are you?

Does it matter? If you are trying to get at something say it. If you have a problem with me or something I have said then take it up with me in pm or by email.

Anybody out there want to "volunteer" for a ride on Metrolink?     

If you do just don't sign any wavers and read the back of the ticket stub carefully before you board!

[TB4JY]

Does it matter? If you are trying to get at something say it. If you have a problem with me or something I have said then take it up with me in pm or by email.

I'll do that.