Southern / NS - why so many lines with ABS?

[troy12n]

Something that always struck me as odd was the fact that SO MANY Southern RY and now NS lines in the SouthEast are ABS with train orders as authority for movement. Versus SCL/CSX lines which virtually none of them are.

It seemed like there was a philosophy that Southern installed ABS on lines that now have fairly high density like the GS&F, the Saluda Line, the S-Line (think this is just ABS) and a couple other places in the 70's and maybe 80's.

Question is, why did they go to the expense to signal the lines and not go the "extra mile" to just install CTC? I have to think that the expense of ABS vs full CTC is minimal, maybe I am mistaken.

My impression is that some of the lines like the GS&F, especially between Macon and Valdosta are sufficiently busy to make it worth while to be CTC.

Thoughts or discussion on the subject?

[lwjabo]

From what I'm told is Southern was one of the first to have ABS. Most lines with real traffic was signaled with it back in the 1920s. The H line between Atlanta and Chattanooga got ABS in 1927. I was told it was cut in at Rockmart less than a month after the head on between the Royal Palm and the Ponce Deleon. This story was told to me by World Famous Conductor Cowboy Mintz. They were putting in CTC as it was called then when I hired in 1971. Took a couple of years and was finished by 1975. There was a bit more to it than signals as they built a few sidings and extended a few more. Late the line between Austell and Birmingham became CT and then the H line from Atlanta to Macon. They did put in ABS on the short I line between Cohutta and Cleveland. There were no sidings and only a few customers around Cleveland. The big thing that pushed the H line north of Atlanta to CTC was Southern rerouting traffic off the CG between Macon and Chattanooga. That and the fact Atlanta ,metro went from a little over a million to some 5 million today. As the south east grows they will have to install more CT. Now that trains don't have a caboose it becomes more of a problem to operate in non signal and ABS. I hope this will be some what of a answer.

[D300]

I will add, SR was an innovator and having signals on a Timetable/Trainorder line (as they were at the time) added another layer of safety. To SR this was the way to go on lines that did not warrent full CTC. And some of this may have happened prior to CTC becoming commonplace.  As you may be aware, all the signal do in these situations is keep trains spaced or keep them from running into each other. No movement authority is granted by the signals. In the old days that movement was given by TO and today it is TWC.

In comparison the other lines mentioned that became CSX routes came from roads that were either cheeper or had less innovative practices. These roads made decisions not equip the lines with any signals at all.

NS in the not so distance past even added switch indicators to the ABS of lines like the Asheville dist. if I remember correctly. Those were not orginial SR.

D300

[lwjabo]

All the sidings in AB also had spring switches and they all had lights to indicate where they lined back correctly. They also had signals leaving the siding so you did not have to run restricted to next signal looking for it. Personally I liked train orders and think this TWC is a lot of BS. It took some getting used to but in some cases one set of orders could run you for some 70 miles and meet several trains. Granted there are few out there now who even remember them. They also replaced the form 23A with the TW. They have had to put a lot more dispatchers to run this TWC also.

[Fly Device]

... I would think this would be a considerably smaller expense than having to throw up the signals, bond the rail (in non-welded rail territory) and install communications circuits or radio to connect back to the dispatch centers.

I could be mistaken, but I don't think ABS provides a track occupancy indication to the dispatcher. The block occupancy circuit is purely used as input to the field signal logic. If that's the case, installing the infrastructure for the communication link to the dispatcher's office would be one of these expenses of going from ABS to CTC. Not to mention the fact that the comm link requires ongoing maintenance and/or fees to the service provider.

If I'm wrong about that, going from ABS to CTC would at least require upgrading from a one-way to a two-way comm link between the field hardware and dispatcher's office.

And consider that several decades ago, when ABS was put in on some of the lines you mention, telecommunication technology was much less advanced and there were fewer or no options for a 3rd party data service provider. That component would have been a bigger expense in the earlier days of CTC than today, when there are options for terrestrial RF (e.g., 900 MHz ATCS), Tachyon satellite, fiber optic, cellular, etc..

[D300]

Replying to several different posts:

First reading and spelling: This is a railroad tradition that goes back decades. I have spent much time in dispatchers offices and they have always done this. First from DS to tower, then DS to train for train orders, named locations spelled and numbers separated out into individual numbers. This seems universal and not specific to NS. So today it caries over to TWC.

As to ABS and displays. No dispatchers display at all. To the DS it is in essence dark territory. Only the TO and TWC computer shows where authority are established. This is not updated until the train calls in and releases the TWC and the DS clears it by typing in the computer.

ABS signals at the sidings and all approach signals to those siding do not have the correct head types for CTC. These signals would need additional heads placed below the main head. Only the intermediates might be able to to be used in kind. There is no communication between the signals and the DS so probably half to 2/3rds of CTC would still need to be installed.

I am not sure but wasn't the NS line from Raleigh to Greensboro converted to CTC a few years back for the NC passenger trains. Was this line signaled or plain dark? If signaled someone might comment on how different the signals system is now.

D300

[D300]

Perhaps tradition is not the right word. It is a safety protocol, as some names can be confused with others and some number can be misunderstood. Same reason some other transportation areas use quirks for things as well such as numbers. I think its aviation that uses "Niner" in place of nine to keep it separate from seven.

I will gamble even if you did not hear it on the radio, DS's have used the spell back process in TO process to tower ops etc. It was a set routine, the dispatcher spelled it out and checked it off as the op spelled it back. All other receivers of the order, TOs went to more than one location, listened for redundancy checking. I have seen that in a number of DS offices across several carriers at least in the southeast/mid-atlantic.

[Full Service]

If your sitting on a train trying to copy a TW, and besides the dispatcher, you might have CYO, another dispatcher, another train talking as well, or breaking in, talking over one another. The strongest signal wins, and you might not always hear what you thought you heard. The read back and spelling of numbers, directions, and names is a very important safety feature that works, and saves lives.  On a staticy radio, or with engine noise in the back ground, a lot of numbers and names can, and do, sound the same.

Even with all of that going on, mistakes do still happen. A dispatcher and train crew I know are out of service now because of such a mistake. Personally, I would rather have to spell out a novel, than have to explain why I got past my working limits or even worse had a head on or went blasting through some poor track workers limits.

[lwjabo]

Fullservice I agree with you. These are the same things we did with train orders. One that just blew me away was when a dispatcher would talk to a train in the forwarding yard at Inman. His signal would over ride every thing in Inman Yards. I have had to stop long couplings for up to 5 minutes when this happened. The old channel 2 did not always work.

[lwjabo]

I see where RR are fighting this PTC. Wondering how PTC would work in NON SIGNAL (dark) territory. Someone pointed to the wreck in Graniteville SC. I believe that was in dark territory. Someone a little closer can tell us if true. If no signals how can they tell if switches are lined correctly? They can't spot a broken rail. I remember some years back when working on a dark piece of track we were hitting a rough spot several times. We talked it over and stopped to see what it was. The rail was broken and they had even ran a motor car over it and they had missed it. We walked our train by it and then reported it to the dispatcher. I received a letter telling me I should have reported it earlier. They want to install this PTC on some 70,000 miles of track and now the RR say it can't be done by 2015. This does push the RR a bit far. It took Southern over 3 years to install CTC on the line between Austell and Ooltewah a distance of about 120 miles. This PTC will also cost in the billions that the RR don't have also.

[NSMoWandS]

To have PTC... one needs a signal system.

[lwjabo]

To have PTC... one needs a signal system.
[/quote]
Thanks. I figured it would have to be. So the cost's gets higher. Say a track only runs 3 trains a day but has some chemicals.  Most lines serve at least one fertilizer or chemical place. Farms need these to keep bugs and such under control. They will fall under the guide line as not enough traffic. So gets by. My guess is that track over in Granitville falls close to this. Several locals and 3 or 4 through freights. Does not take but one mistake. We were working in Griffin Ga. We get a few loads for Dundee. I spot them at the loading platform. Later get a call to move them to the loom track. No one had ever heard of it so I asked someone at Dundee. . It was a bit down the old Southern main. It was covered in weeds and the track where it crossed the road was paved over. I tell them a track man has to look at the track before I go there. I get a call to spot the cars as the track is good. Do it first thing when I get back to Griffin tomorrow with out fail. So we do. After a few trips there we derail and we are set for and investigation. I bring a copy of my orders with the notes and we mark off to attend. The track supervisor has to stop where ever he is when we lay down the notes. We all get payed two days pay with some 6 hours over time. Then they hide the notes and say we never gave them a copy. I go to the operator and he has his. I make copy's and sure enough they pay. Seems the track supervisor had never hear of the loom track. He like me thinks we are talking the Cotton platform. I always told the Trainmaster before he sets up the next investigation to get all the details. Still taking the notes and saying we did not give them a copy was a bit to far. Well the good old days.

[NSMoWandS]

Yes, the reality is... if you count up the number of lives that would have been saved vs. cost... it is roughly 165+ million dollars per person... so... could this money be better spent... yes. But, those biggest people on welfare(US Congress) have to do something to justify their pay.

[Ponce de Leon]

3. In regards to spelling out things. This is definetly NOT a nationwide thing. It's pretty much a NS thing. CSX never did it until recently and I dont recall some other roads doing it, although some definetly do/did. I think it's silly. If you cant communicate things properly without having to spell things out, perhaps you shouldnt be a DS or work for the railroad. Saying it's a tradition is silly. There were lots of dumb traditions the railroads had and have lived since getting rid of them.

Troy,
I've been reading through this chain, which is generally pretty accurate. "Spelling out things" is one of the sacred rules of traditional railroading that goes back to the early days of timetable and train order operation. It's the prudent and proper thing to do. ABS merely does one thing, by the way---it keeps trains from running into each other.

I wouldn't be so hard on NS for following such "dumb" traditions: how many E. H. Harriman Gold Medals has CSX won? (zero; NS has 22---consecutive).

The nation's railroads would be wise to respect the ways of the past. Remember: the rule book was written in blood.

[lwjabo]

I agree not only the rule book but the History of American Rail Roads was wrote in blood. There are places on almost any line that had dozens if not hundreds killed. I listen to some of the old story's. Some could turn your stomach with so much blood and guts. The story of air brakes. The days brakemen ran on top of box cars. Hot boxes. Many were killed. Trestles caving in with trains. There are rules I think go to far but some rules on the subject had to be in place. Spelling a few words is child's play. I never had problems doing that. I said it then and say it now railroading is not for the weak or weak at heart. There are rules I don't like. The one not letting you use the spokes on a brake wheel to tie up brakes is one. This three step protection goes a bit to far. Granted those who go between box cars are at the mercy of the one behind the throttle.

[Beavis]

3. In regards to spelling out things. This is definetly NOT a nationwide thing. It's pretty much a NS thing. CSX never did it until recently and I dont recall some other roads doing it, although some definetly do/did. I think it's silly. If you cant communicate things properly without having to spell things out, perhaps you shouldnt be a DS or work for the railroad. Saying it's a tradition is silly. There were lots of dumb traditions the railroads had and have lived since getting rid of them.


Excellent responses Fullservice and Ron.

Troy, if you worked for the railroad and your job or life depended on giving or copying track authorities correctly every time, you would spell things out too.  Spelling things out is how you communicate properly over a radio channel that several people could be trying to use at the same time.  I've given out thousands of track authorities over the years and the only one that I remember is the one that almost killed a man.

[NSMoWandS]

Troy,
And are they cancelling the Harriman Awards because they believe railroads were not reporting all the injuries? And is NS right in the bullseye for this? Just food for thought.

[NSMoWandS]

Sorry,
My comment was not for Troy, but for Ponce de Leon.

[Ponce de Leon]

Sorry,
My comment was not for Troy, but for Ponce de Leon.

Actually, I don't know, so that may not be the perfect example. But---the fact remains that spelling out all important words in a track warrant, a train order, a track and time permit or whatever is the smart thing to do. I wasn't paying close enough attention to a dispatcher once when I was working on the CNO&TP, and almost ran my hi-rail into the rear of a standing train on track 2 at Greenwood. It was my error.

I also agree "Three Step" is a bit too much. Some of the rules are now geared to make employees stupid-proof. Furthermore, I think getting on and off moving equipment should still be permitted. CN still allows this, by the way.

[lwjabo]

I agree it was easier to get up moving than stopped. More so when I got older. The problem teaching getting up and down moving now is who would show them how? Must be at least 12 years if not more since they stopped it. That new time table is also the pits. To dang big. Have to leave in the bottom of your bag. More than likely a plastic bag around it. Pages get torn from it  real easy. This design sure was not done by a working Conductor or Engineer. A Road forman told me he was in a class when it was first showed. The only people who thought it was a good idea was those who never was part of a crew and the YES men. The rechargeable batter for the lantern is way to heavy. They have enough to haul why add more weight? The day of using a small awol bag to make a trip is a thing of the past.

[NSMoWandS]

Yes, they are canceling the Harriman Awards for that very reason... and NS is in a lawsuit that said it managers were trying to force employees not to report accidents. The new way of letting ALL accidents be reported without fear is good. Only way to know where the real dangers are. How many conductors have got that green "safety" vest caught on something? I wonder if that is reported? Just food for thought...