Does NS use any concrete ties ? While in Chattanooga for the Steam ride I saw some concrete ties but I think it was on the CSX line as we went into the event. I am sure that concrete ties cost alot more but it looks like they would be less upkeep in the long run. Anyone have any thoughts or experiance with either ?
Good question, I have often wondered the same thing.
Paul
No, NS is a wooden tie railroad.
From touring the University of Illinois' Railtec program this spring, I've gathered that NS does not use any concrete ties on their system. NS sees that wooden ties are more cost-effective to maintain than concrete ties.
A good prediction would be that once UofI's students figure out how to stop premature wear beneath the tie clips due to the motion of a train, NS will be more probable to at least test concrete ties. This wouldn't surprise me, as NS has a pretty good stake in the program.
-Chip :)
Crossties: The tie that binds
By Paul D. Schneider
Published: May 1, 2006
Concrete versus wood
What about concrete ties? Popular overseas, they have found favor on some North American railroads, notably Florida East Coast, Amtrak, Burlington Northern Santa Fe, and Canadian National.
The wood tie is cheaper and lighter (260 pounds versus 600 to 800 pounds for concrete). Wood is resilient, and it serves to insulate the two rails from each other electrically - important for signal circuits.
Concrete lasts longer, and the combination of heavy ties and special tie plates and fasteners (ordinary spikes don't work with concrete ties) makes a much more rigid track in which all components last longer. The unique shape of concrete ties, with the middle portion lower than the ends, was designed to best relfect the distribution of forces: a lot of material is placed where it is needed (under the rails), and relatively little is placed where the need is not as great (in the middle).
I used to have a VHS tape that had a section on the BNSF concrete tie train. It showed the train lifting the rail, taking out the wood ties and putting in the concrete ties. Unfortunately, I lost it several years ago and cant find it to save my life. I dont remember the name either.
Paul
I saw a machine on Youtube that takes the old tie up and replaces it with a concrete tie. Looks like it would be a headach to work on with all those moving parts.
NS does have some "test" sections of concrete ties. There is a very short stretch on the Whitethorne District between Riverside and Kumis. They can be seen from the 460 bridge. Main 1 of the Pokey west of Iaeger has a lengthy stretch of concrete ties as well. They go at least as far as Panther. There are other sections on the Pokey as well, but I have not actually seen those myself. I believe one of the tracks on the Mon Line in PA has concrete ties, but they may have been installed during the Conrail days(?)
From what I have heard from local supervisors, NS has encountered as many cons as pros with these ties, hence NS's lack of investment in them. I believe they were found to fail faster than the manufacturer stated in certain areas of installation.
NS also is testing Fiberglass ties on bridges. I believe BNSF is also. BNSF is also testing steel ties on switches in yards. The fiberglass ties keep the gage(tech spelling) or guage much better on the bridge environment than the wood. However, there has been some tie plates cutting into the ties... Most new wood ties are treated with borax to keep insects out and it also keeps the ties from rotting quickly in a damp, hot environment. The average lifespan of a wood tie in the SE US is about 5 years. In the NE US... 10-20 years. So, I would not be too surprised if all the RR's in the SE eventually will switch to concrete ties.
Quote from: NSMoWandS on June 18, 2012, 09:48:10 PM
NS also is testing Fiberglass ties on bridges. I believe BNSF is also. BNSF is also testing steel ties on switches in yards. The fiberglass ties keep the gage(tech spelling) or guage much better on the bridge environment than the wood. However, there has been some tie plates cutting into the ties... Most new wood ties are treated with borax to keep insects out and it also keeps the ties from rotting quickly in a damp, hot environment. The average lifespan of a wood tie in the SE US is about 5 years. In the NE US... 10-20 years. So, I would not be too surprised if all the RR's in the SE eventually will switch to concrete ties.
Along the North Carolina railroad corridor, steel ties are used on new construction or reconstruction of old secondary siding/yard/industrial tracks. Not sure if that is by NCRR's choice or NS. I know steel ties are in place at the Boylan storage track and the Cabarrus Street yard in Raleigh, and the entire yard at Selma, NC, is on steel ties.
The original Norfolk Southern was a user of concrete ties, using them on the branch from Phosphate Junction(near Chocowinity, NC) to Lee Creek. I think most, if not all, of those were removed by the Southern, as there were problems with the ties at the tie plate/clip assembly, especially in curves. But those were early concrete ties, and the technology is much better now.
Yes the technology is better... but, only if they are made correctly! Ask Amtrak and NJ Transit about that!
New Jersey recently bilt a shore bridge out of plastic. Maybe plastic ties someday?
Plastic ties are being tested in Pueblo, CO.
I can see those taking off. I know that combining two plastics makes a crazy strong combination. I just hope they stay brown. We have to keep some tradition!
-Chip :)
NS has tested concrete, steel and plastic ties, all in different locations. There is a stretch of the Pokey Mainline west of Ieager, WV, ~ 1mile long that has, or at least had, steel ties. There is a photo and blurb in the current issue of either Railfan & Railroad or CTC Board that discusses where NS has installed steel ties on a short line somewhere in western PA, where NS is using the short line as a bridge route for coal traffic.
There is a stretch also nearly a mile long of recycled plastic ties, somewhere in western, VA that has plastic ties. A buddy of mine who is on the tie gang out of Roanoke installed them. He said when they installed them, they had little to no instructions and tried to use conventional spikes. They ended up bending a bunch of spikes and eventually the ram on the spiker. They needed to pre-drill the holes.
Over the history of concrete ties, there have been issues with failures for various reasons, however they are designed to last longer than and carry heavier traffic than wood ties.
I know that CSX has some concrete ties through Knoxville, and I *thought* that Norfolk Southern had a small section of concrete somewhere around here, but my brain may be failing me.
If anyone is interested in the concrete and the replacement process, if you've got Netflix, search Bob the Builder On Site: Trains & Treehouses.
No, really. ;D
There is a good little bit on there about it - talks about the concrete ties, shows the machines pulling out the wooden ones, yada yada. My kids watch is at least 234589721349781 times a week (day?).
Norfolk Southern is still using concrete ties west of the Litwar Processing plant at Hull, around Krolitz (anybody ever been to Krolitz?) and there were some piled up at Sandy Huff east of Iaeger at one time. I'm not aware of any other places on the Pokey though going from memory here and may be wrong. I was at Krolitz three weeks ago and they seemed to be holding up rather well, though it was a very straight stretch of track.
On the CSX KD below Corbin they've used concrete ties with terrible results. Most have horizontal cracks thru them, apparently not being able to hold up to the tonnage in the curves, and I have some shots somewhere of the wire holding the two ends together after the concrete has been pulverized with use.
Will post in the photo section a shot recently of the ties at Krolitz.
You mean like this?
CSX, on the CC subdivison has concrete ties in a lot of different places, and from what I have heard, CSX loves them, since they can be put in, not replaced for numerous years, and not to mention they hold the rail in place a lot better than wood, and concrete can take more weight.
Southern something like 40 years ago installed concrete ties on the West Inbound at DeButts. The only ones ever replaced were where a switch was installed or one take out. That was when I retired December 2005. I would have thought they planed on putting in more. If they did I never saw them. If you look it near Cito Jct and goes for about half a mile.
That's some pretty rough looking track with all the mud and water shooting up thru the ballast. Typical of what I see on the CSX KD Sub below Jellico, especially at the south leg of the Holton wye.
In all my years of running the Pokey I don't ever think I've seen mud/water in the ballast.
When you get water fouling the ballast... it lets mud seep upwards into the ballast. When the mud dries... it becomes like concrete. With the track structure no longer being able to flex... the concrete ties crack and shatter. Wood ties handle it better, however, the spikes tend to loosen up. Plastic/fiberglass ties seem to handle the best in those situations. But, again, all this is based on location and tonnage. Dan
I think all railroads should convert to concrete.
I told you Southern put in concrete ties on the West Inbound near Citco some 40 years go. You can drive down beside them and look. I never understood why Southern did not do that any place else. Mr. Lee told me when they put them in they had some men from a railroad in England they to show hem how. Every day for lunch the men waned to drink beer. Mr. Lee had no problems with drinking beer but kept thinking about being fired for Rule G. He said they complained American beer was like water.
I'm just not convinced they can convert to concrete, at least in heavy tonnage (coal) divisions with plenty of elevated curves. The western end of the Pokey is nothing but back to back severe curvature, almost doubling over on itself in places, with each one having an elevated side.
Then again I didn't receive a civil engineery degree either.... :D
Out west where there is more barren land than forrest, concrete becomes more economical. Concrete is getting stronger everyday with new additives. Even homes are now being built with concrete, and you would never be able too tell the difference.
With all this anti foresting stuff going, concrete will become more popular.
Yay, a response to a 6-month old thread. Who said anything about deforestation...? I'm pretty sure the trees we have aren't going away...
-Chip
NS does have a significant length of concrete ties on the Mon line (south side pgh) but this was put in by Conrail. No problems that I know of--- this line handles all of the loaded coal out of the mon valley and all ttx double stacks to and from the east coast.
NS also installed (ie Kiski Jct railroad-- ne Rosebud mining) about 7 miles of steel ties on the line to logansport pa (old buffalo line) northeast of pgh in the last two years. Don't think that NS had any real say in this however.
r
Anyone know how many yards of concrete does a heavy duty have?
Depending on the type of heavy haul tie, density of the concrete and amount of steel renforcement... anywhere from .5-2 yds and weigh 500-900lbs. Dan
Quote from: NSMoWandS on July 09, 2012, 09:21:27 AM
You mean like this?
I worked with a track supervisor that would call this a "didapper's nest" (pumping mud on both sides).
Quote from: Ponce de Leon on April 19, 2013, 09:51:59 PM
Quote from: NSMoWandS on July 09, 2012, 09:21:27 AM
You mean like this?
I worked with a track supervisor that would call this a "didapper's nest" (pumping mud on both sides).
It could pass for one of their nests! LOL! Dan
The picture over on the 1st page of this thread is pretty typical of CSX trackage I have seen in a LOT of place, wood or concrete. The sad fact is, that no matter what kind of tie you use, it wont be around very long without maintaining the roadbed itself. Water leads to mud, mud leads to pumpers, and there go your ties.
There was a Southern man that was once quoted as saying the secret to success in railroading was Drainage..Drainage, and then...Drainage! You have to have something solid to put those ties on, otherwise you might as well just use toothpicks!
You have to add new rock, tamp, run a ballast cleaner and clean your ditches often...if you dont do that, your asking for trouble. That is the place NS seems to get it right more often or not, although I can think of a few spots around here where the "mud volcanoes" are a sight to behold in wet weather. Watch a 60 mph stack track run over a soft spot and the mud and water is shooting 5 foot high out of those volcanoes!
Quote from: E.M. Bell on April 21, 2013, 11:45:12 AM
The picture over on the 1st page of this thread is pretty typical of CSX trackage I have seen in a LOT of place, wood or concrete. The sad fact is, that no matter what kind of tie you use, it wont be around very long without maintaining the roadbed itself. Water leads to mud, mud leads to pumpers, and there go your ties.
There was a Southern man that was once quoted as saying the secret to success in railroading was Drainage..Drainage, and then...Drainage! You have to have something solid to put those ties on, otherwise you might as well just use toothpicks!
You have to add new rock, tamp, run a ballast cleaner and clean your ditches often...if you dont do that, your asking for trouble. That is the place NS seems to get it right more often or not, although I can think of a few spots around here where the "mud volcanoes" are a sight to behold in wet weather. Watch a 60 mph stack track run over a soft spot and the mud and water is shooting 5 foot high out of those volcanoes!
Your 100% correct EM! It's ALL about drainage! Water is the most destructive force to the roadbed. And, I will not say what RR that pic is from... but, it wasn't CSX... this time. ;) Dan
Does anyone have an idea of how much concrete is in one heavy duty tie?
Concrete has become has high-tech as anything else gas become. Simply not a mixture of sand, gravel cement and water anymore, it now uses fiber mesh, different degrees of air entrainment, rebar and special mixes.
Today's concrete, as we all know is used in bridges, tunnels and other high stress applications.
I think with forestry becoming an issue with tree huggers, concrete ties are a good substitute.
Quote from: steveiez on June 07, 2013, 09:01:52 AM
think with forestry becoming an issue with tree huggers, concrete ties are a good substitute.
Yet the European tree huggers want to cut down American forests for "renewable energy" power plants.
Concrete has become a science. I think they will eventually come up with concrete ties that work.
Quote from: chipallen16 on April 15, 2013, 07:20:30 AM
Yay, a response to a 6-month old thread. Who said anything about deforestation...? I'm pretty sure the trees we have aren't going away...
-Chip
No, trees won't go away, it is the huggers who will make it an issue for the stopping of logging.
I asked a MOW man today if N/S was going to use concrete ties. He said no, due to them not being able to withstand heavy loads.
Amtrak and light rail are using them with good results, mainly because they are lighter consists.