Banner Check

[thpbears]

What is a banner check ? I think I might know but someone tell me anyway.

[Ptrainman]

When the officials go out and check you on the job for safety and performance. Alot of the times around here they do it at night. I just talked to one of the conductors I know and he said that another one of the crews here got check Monday night.


Paul

[thpbears]

okay thanks for the info.

[E.M. Bell]

A banner check is used to check crew compliance with restricted signals.

A TM or RFE will place a shunt wire on the track, setting signals to red at a location where the dispatcher can talk a train by the restricted signal. To comply with the rules, the train must stop, then proceed at a speed that will allow them to stop in one half the range of vision. The banner will normally be placed between the rails, in a place that will make it hard to spot (like the end of a sharp curve). The train should come to a stop before reaching the banner.

I will admit that a lot of the "trapping" RR officials do to test crews are sometimes not on the up and up, and there is a lot of animosity with the T&E crews with this stuff, but the banner checks are probably a good thing. There have been a lot of accidents caused by a train getting by a signal, or talked by one then not being able to stop in time. The wreck on the BNSF out west this year, where a loaded coal train rear ended another train, is a prime example...two people died in that, and it was unfortunately it was one of many accidents of a similar nature to happen.


When we operated over the NS in Knoxville, we got checked like that on a regular basis...got a few hats and other cheap nick-knacks for passing them. The worst was the NS TM down there that would place an EGG in between switchpoints to see if you double checked before you lined it...break the egg and you where had!

[thpbears]

Okay what is the differance between a train master and road foreman of engines. I have heard a few stories about rail crews not liking the train master. I even heard a story of a trainmaster hiding in a tree and getting the speeds of engines as they went by.

[lwjabo]

I will break it down. Road Formans are for teaching proper train control. It is a job that been there almost from the start. Some of the men generally like the road forman better as he has worked as a engineer and more than likely was a Conductor and even a trainman at one time. A trainmaster is give a territory. A couple of hundred miles of track. He works to make sure delivery's are made and the customers are happy. That and the conduct of the crews can make them rather busy. A crew can go weeks or even months without seeing a Road Forman or Trainmaster. Does not mean they have not seen the crew. A story was told to me about a trainmaster doing some paper work in his car and checking the crew as they switched. He would work on some papers then pick up his binoculars and watch the crew for a few minutes. So some old woman see him spying and she thinks he is watching her. She calls the police and they come out. One story goes he went to jail before he got out and the other says he explained what he was doing and they all went to the woman and she finally believed it. Road Formans normally  work there whole division. Some places they have it broke down to several districts but they can and do see the whole division. Trainmaster can to but to less a degree. They are sent to different places to make rule checks and to make sure the TM and RFE are doing there job. Some TM come from the ranks but most working the main lines are college boys. There are some arguments between RFE and TM because the RF has seniority he can go back to if he is let go from his officers job. Those bosses who don't have seniority don't like that.

[thpbears]

I think it was a CSX crew that was on the NS main enroute to their main and they ran through a banner stretched across the track. The CSX guys on the radio said something to the effect of if your guy wants his banner back he can pick it up at the csx yard office. Then they laughed and kept on going. Guess that would be a bit stressful on the NS guy that put the banner up.

[Michael Knight]

I think it was a CSX crew that was on the NS main enroute to their main and they ran through a banner stretched across the track. The CSX guys on the radio said something to the effect of if your guy wants his banner back he can pick it up at the csx yard office. Then they laughed and kept on going. Guess that would be a bit stressful on the NS guy that put the banner up.

I think the NS banner was incorrectly placed on CSX tracks by the NS official; this incident is related to the shunting incident in Cordele, I beleive.

Such erroneous actions by the NS official displays the typical ignorance of today's crop of NS field managers. NS actively recruits off the street from colleges nationwide and seems to prefer filling management positions this way. Even many road foreman move into the position quickly after hiring as a conductor these days--some enter the OST program immediately upon completing LET school.

[thpbears]

Thanks for the info . This is just interesting to me.

[Full Service]

It used to be that for the most part, officials where promoted from the rank and file.  A good engineer was promoted to a road foreman (or traveling engineer as some lines called them) and you could almost bet your lunch that a trainmaster had worked just about every flagging, braking and conductor job on the division he was on as well. They both knew the territory, knew the job, and had a pretty firm grasp on what was going on.

Now days, as said above, trainmasters come off the street, go to NS school to become company men, and then go out to boss over men that have been on the job longer than most of the OST's have been alive. These guys don't stay in one place long enough to learn much about any specific area, and most of them don't have a clue on how anything is done other than how the rulebook says it should be done. Its hard to hold someone like that in respect as a supervisor, but its the NS way.

RFE's are not AS bad. They are all qualified engineers, but still may get moved around a lot. I am not saying that all of these people are worthless, as there ARE some good ones that will treat you with respect and are willing to work with you and not against you, but they are far and few between.

Today's NS is not your daddies railroad, and that my friends, is not a good thing.

[thpbears]

That sounds like my wife speaking when she says the grass is not always greener on the other side of the fence. Guess I will just stay where I am and watch those ole black and white engines keep  going on by. I see they usrally have Road Foreman of engine job postings but I don't think I have ever saw a Trainmaster posting.

[Michael Knight]

It used to be that for the most part, officials where promoted from the rank and file.  A good engineer was promoted to a road foreman (or traveling engineer as some lines called them) and you could almost bet your lunch that a trainmaster had worked just about every flagging, braking and conductor job on the division he was on as well. They both knew the territory, knew the job, and had a pretty firm grasp on what was going on.

Now days, as said above, trainmasters come off the street, go to NS school to become company men, and then go out to boss over men that have been on the job longer than most of the OST's have been alive. These guys don't stay in one place long enough to learn much about any specific area, and most of them don't have a clue on how anything is done other than how the rulebook says it should be done. Its hard to hold someone like that in respect as a supervisor, but its the NS way.

RFE's are not AS bad. They are all qualified engineers, but still may get moved around a lot. I am not saying that all of these people are worthless, as there ARE some good ones that will treat you with respect and are willing to work with you and not against you, but they are far and few between.

Today's NS is not your daddies railroad, and that my friends, is not a good thing.

Very well said, Fullservice! Things sure have changed....

[lwjabo]

As most of you know I'm a retired Conductor from NS. I try not to sound negative as most then think I'm just a bitter old retired railroad man. Granted I know why many get negative about NS and even the Southern. I've been there. Get a call early one morning and say you are cut off and by the way since you are cut off forced to and outlying job. Then a few hours later they mark up 10 new guys from training. After going on the law and loading up in a taxi the trainmaster who has been popping his whip all day says your are out of service for a rule violation you did not do. Then 24 hours later he calls from the call office to tell me again the same thing. I said you told me that last night. He laughs and says if you had been out of place today I would have dismissed you. Trainmasters given orders when business is down to have one crew in the office every Monday for and Investigation so they can give then time for Rule Violations. Believe me I have seen that also. Might add some of the guys promoted from the ranks can be as bad if not worse than the college boys. They did not call them the good old Brosnan days. It brought chills to many old men when the name was mentioned. All the men I worked with had job insurance in case you were suspended. I used mine several times as most did. There is nothing new that NS can throw at the crews that has not been seen before from the Southern days. Granted these banters were not used till well into the 1980s.

[Michael Knight]

They did not call them the good old Brosnan days. It brought chills to many old men when the name was mentioned. All the men I worked with had job insurance in case you were suspended. I used mine several times as most did. There is nothing new that NS can throw at the crews that has not been seen before from the Southern days. Granted these banters were not used till well into the 1980s.

Very true! The big difference between then and now is that the old head bossmen in Brosnan's era knew how to railroad. The college boys, however, don't know a handbrake from a brake valve; it's funny now a days when a crew is busted for something perfectly legal (and routine) that the charging official cited as a violation of some rule that doesn't apply to the move in question. Those cases are usually thrown out once a local chairman gets involved and contacts the higher ups.

Another big difference is the metrics by which supervisors are evaluated for their performance. Retaining customers, meeting service commitments, and ensuring trains have adequate power and available crews to get over the road without delay take a back seat to cost cutting; even though the results of cost cutting may (and frequently do) result in missed connections, decreased asset utilization, increased transit times, and unsatisfied customers, an NS official would likely receive high marks on his/her performance review for meeting cost targets, for example.

[thpbears]

What does going on the law mean ? I have seen that quite a bit on here?

[nsgelocos]

On the Law, as I understand, is a term for when a crew runs out of time to work. A crew can only work so many hours. If they exceed the given time they have to stop the train wherever they are at and the train must be re-crewed.

[E.M. Bell]

In a nutshell, going "on the law" means that a person has worked a full 12 hours, and is no  longer able work, as regulated by the Hours of Service Law. 12 hours, and your done...end of story.

The HOS regulations are actually a pretty complicated thing, covering how long you can work, how long you have to be off (undisturbed) before they can call you to work...then you have other variables like deadheading and all other sorts of stuff.

Truckers, Bus Drivers, Pilots...they all have similar rules, but its different for each type of transportation.

[lwjabo]

Yes the term for dead or going on the law is the end of the time allowed to work. At that time it was 14 hours. So going back about 40 years. Some RR slang are not the say all over. What was done say on the old Southern may not have been done on the then Penn Central. With the mix that we have today many terms will die and many new ones may be created. We also called it the dog law.

[T. Mahan]

Not sure what I saw once.. When I worked for CSX and up the old Monon, we crossed the K&I bridge into New Albany.  The bridge is under NS control, and double tracked. We were on one track, on the other track were a few 'suits' and a dummy in overalls dressed as an MoW worker. Guess they were using the dummy as a banner? 

Also in the same spot, one foggy night, we had a restricted across the L&I bridge northbound.  It was a dark and foggy night.  We were rolling along at about 5 MPH when I see something small and red in front of us.  Turned out to be the reflective tape on an EOT resting on the long hood end of the Duncan Hill pusher stopped in front of us!  This was 13 years ago before reflective 3M covered everything, no white stripe, no illuminated numberboards or dimmed headlight.  Had it not been for the 6 " x 8" reflective decal, we may have made a rough coupling into another loco!  We stopped about 20 feet shy!

[rrman70]

Road Formans are for teaching proper train control

Not any more all they are now are the rule police. Checking out WERIS alerts, pulling tapes looking for any and everything they can to give someone a START. I keep hearing about the kinder/gentler NS coming I will belive it when I see it. A friend of mine sent these to me so here's a banner check, and a copy of the NS management field guide hope no one gets offended......

[Conductor]

Huh, while clearly violating the rule about stepping on rails or switches  ;D

[E.M. Bell]

The conservative responsible forum owner part of me says that pic is questionable here...

The normal rude crude self says....That's what I call I bumping post right there....heyooooooooo


Conservative...who do I think I am kidding anyway!!  What would a good RR forum be without a little female distraction every now and then....

[NSMoWandS]

If those are the ones doing banner checks at NS... I need to transfer departments... and nail the banner everytime... just so I could talk to them for a while... haha! And, that IS the book they gave me... haha!