NS 69D

[jhicks7]

Saw this train coming through downtown Roanoke before going in to work earlier. It was just a mix of covered hoppers of various reporting marks. Never heard the symbol before. Does anyone know what type of train it was and where it is coming from /heading to? It was on the bridge over Tinker Creek on my drive in, waiting for permission though Roanoke. I did a google search and got two hits within the last 48 hours on the symbol, but there only a single unit and conflicting descriptions of what it really was. Just curious.... I did get a couple of shots, but it was cloudy out and I was about to walk in to work.

Thanks for any help you can provide!
Josh

[nsrlink]

Atlanta - Roanoke Phosphate, 70 cars
Wash & assign to grain service.

[jhicks7]

Thanks! Is this symbol always for phosphate trains, or does it change or depend on the division it's running on?

Josh

[JCagle]

The bulk commodity trains typically take what's available symbol wise is they run as needed. Regular billed jobs tend to have the same numbers no matter what division (like coal trains).

[jhicks7]

Oh okay. When I looked up the symbol I found it to be a coil train, a grain train, and a phosphate train, so I was slightly confused. Thanks for the info as always!

[ARandall70]

In the last month or so, at least two 68D's have run to the Port of Morehead City, NC, down the H and EC lines from Greensboro. I don't know exactly where they are loaded, but have been able to tell they come up from through Georgia from other YouTube videos.

This past week there was an empty phosphate 69D from the port with a single C40-9W, I'm guessing that is the one you saw. Its interesting you saw it in Roanoke, as it was in Mebane, NC 5-26 and in Georgia on 5-27. But as nsrlink says, they are going for washing to switch to grain service. An odd move to run it to Atlanta before realizing it needed to go back to Roanoke. 

[jhicks7]

This had 3 Dash-9s for power and was a mix of different hoppers - NS (NS, SOU, NW) and then MWCX, FURX, GACX, DJTX to name a few of the random ones mixed in. The youtube videos are what clued me in as to a couple of the possibilities, but I never would have guessed an empty phosphate train to be prepped for grain service. It must have got the swapped power in Atlanta, and been slow moving too. I didn't even look at those dates, so I thought this was video footage from the past 48 hours, not a week and a half ago. An interesting catch nonetheless.

[nsrlink]

NS's seemingly random choice of symbols / numbering for coal, grain, bulk commodities leaves a lot to be desired.  One day a 69D may be Atlanta -Roanoke, another day it may be Valdosta - Morehead City, another day it may be Occidental FL -Ft Wayne.  I can also think of a few coal train numbers that have 3 different origin mine / 3 destination combinations.  Same deal with some of the grain trains.  You just don't know unless you're able to look them up in the computer or see them / follow them via the internet.  It's just a crap shoot any more as to where some of these trains are going & there's no reason it has to be this way with so many symbols available for use.  No reason that a symbol 69D shouldn't always be an A to Z phosphate train, a 84K shouldn't be a mine A to power plant A train & an 84M shouldn't be a mine B to power plant B train.  Note:  I do realize some trains get diverted to another plant, or grain is sold & finalized enroute; but this happens way too often to be the sole explanation for this.

[Momo]

There is a method to the madness, trust me.

[Michael Knight]

NS's seemingly random choice of symbols / numbering for coal, grain, bulk commodities leaves a lot to be desired.... Note:  I do realize some trains get diverted to another plant, or grain is sold & finalized enroute; but this happens way too often to be the sole explanation for this.

Very well said, 'link. NS used to be very organized as far as symbols go. When the last renumbering took place of the 300- and 400-series trains, random symbols became the norm. I can see the value of having some flexibility for spot moves and such, but this type of haphazard symbol assigning occurs far too often.

[jhicks7]

Haha no wonder I was clueless. Thanks for all the info guys.

[nsrlink]

There is a method to the madness, trust me.

You must know something I don't (unless it has to do with covering up dwell times & late trains.)  I'll patiently & gladly await a detailed explanation.  Heck, even the chief dispatchers have to pull up some of the trains to figure out where they are going (this trip vs last trip.)

[Momo]

There is a static schedule and a 'daily schedule'. Static is just all of the valid train symbols. The daily schedule are all of the trains that are scheduled for that day. Like if train 732 doesn't run on a Wednesday, it doesn't make the schedule for Wednesday. But it is still a valid symbol if Service Design needs to run one for Wednesday.

If a dispatcher needs to create a train on the fly (which happens a lot), they have to look up the symbol to see if its available for that day. There are a lot of symbols, especially in the bulk commodity trains, that have no origin/destination pair in order to give dispatchers this option. Use the symbol, add where you want it to go, train created, call the crew, job done.

Yeah, back in the day, 300-400 series trains were even broken down to the divisional level, but that has been thrown out of the window for awhile now. Its all about flexibility to run the railroad.

[nsrlink]

There is a static schedule and a 'daily schedule'. Static is just all of the valid train symbols. The daily schedule are all of the trains that are scheduled for that day. Like if train 732 doesn't run on a Wednesday, it doesn't make the schedule for Wednesday. But it is still a valid symbol if Service Design needs to run one for Wednesday.

Admittedly, I'm a simpleton agreement employee.... I'm familiar with the differences between "static train plan" & "dynamic train plan."  I fail to understand why Service Design wouldn't designate any bulk commodity train symbol (or pair of symbols; origin / destination) to be available 7 days per week... or any "extra" non-intermodal, non-standard-manifest train.

Seems we *should* have enough pairs of unique combinations using the "silly" 3 character alpha-numeric method to be able to come up with unique symbols for each origin - destination pair.  By silly, I'm referring to the realization that we wouldn't have enough symbols using 3 digit numeric symbols & rather than revamping the punch card mainframes we use to something that would take a 4,5,6 character letter or number combination, it was cheaper to go the "69D" "M8M" "21Z" route back in 1998 / 1999.  I'm no statition, but using A-Z + two digit numbers yields a lot of unique & plausible origin / destination pairs.

If a dispatcher needs to create a train on the fly (which happens a lot), they have to look up the symbol to see if its available for that day. There are a lot of symbols, especially in the bulk commodity trains, that have no origin/destination pair in order to give dispatchers this option. Use the symbol, add where you want it to go, train created, call the crew, job done.

I think the "on the fly" is where a lot of the "problem" lies and the result is I can't get my head around this practice / concept.  Chief looks at available symbols for a grain train from, say, Muncie, IN to Atlanta, GA.  AND/OR chief needs to run a coal train from Williamson, WV to Belmont, NC.  They pick the first symbol that pops up as "available."  ...And this is where the "silliness" comes in.  I don't see any reason as to why a Munice, IN - Atlanta, GA grain train isn't 67G & counterpart is ALWAYS 68G.  Whatever set of symbols you want to use, between two points, (origin & destination,) they should always be consistent. 

I still fail to "see" the "logic" (if there is any logic to be "seen,") in having a 51Q symbol being available to terminate (be destined) to 9 or 20 different locations on the system.  (See this post for reference:  http://www.jreb.org/ns/index.php?topic=12451.msg42794)  Why is is permissible or better yet desired to have a 51Q being able to terminate in 20 different places??  Didn't we go through ISO:9002 training on standardization years ago??  I'd think from a dispatcher / chief / T&E / yardmaster / trainmaster / etc. prospective it's better to say, oh we have a 51Q called... that's always the empty grain train from Atlanta to Muncie, (or wherever,)  ...we know where it goes & what route it needs; rather than 51Q???  What's that & where's it go??  Stand-by & let me look that up in the computer & I'll get back with ya.   :   :

Yeah, back in the day, 300-400 series trains were even broken down to the divisional level, but that has been thrown out of the window for awhile now. Its all about flexibility to run the railroad.

Flexible, maybe, ....but confusing, non-standardized, nonsensical; definitely!!

[Momo]

LOL, you are not a simpleton agreement employee. I hear your complaint.

As to why the system hasn't been upgraded...well...we will have to meet in person to have that discussion, I am not putting it on a blog board.

[nsrlink]

LOL, you are not a simpleton agreement employee. I hear your complaint.

As to why the system hasn't been upgraded...well...we will have to meet in person to have that discussion, I am not putting it on a blog board.

That's cool, maybe some day...

My hypothesis is NS had 3 digits in all the mainframe applications prior to buying Conrail.
NS wasn't going to use Conrail's mainframe or applications a minute longer than absolutely necessary.
NS wasn't going PAY up to re-write ALL their applications in use to accommodate additional spaces (4, 5, or 6 digits --whatever,) to go to a new numbering system.  (Plus, they had Y2K to deal with too.)
Thus, we have the "hybrid" alpha-numeric "soup" we have today, cause it was the cheapest way to make due with the existing technology & applications (and 3 character "numbering" + 2 digit line segment + 2 digit date,) at the time.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm thinking "Atlanta Realtime" has been around since the Southern Railway System days!!??!!   

[Momo]

You pretty much nailed it on the head.

Its been around as long as I've been alive, I think. Which would be about almost 40 years, lol. A while ago there was talk about redoing the symbol system, so it may happen eventually.

[NSTopHat]

MOMO;

Can you contact me directly at r m g n w 6 1 1 at m s n dot com? I'm in Atlanta and would like to touch base with you.

Regards,
Russ Goodwin