Rat Hole-1970 and 1972

Ponce de Leon · June 21, 2011, 12:24:01 PM

Hey folks...

I'm a newbie to the list (after someone suggested I join). Among other things in my life (I'm a 63 year old retired person, by the way), I worked for the Southern as a part-time janitor at Andover from 1968 until college graduation in 1970, and then as a management trainee based at Louisville for about six months in 1970. I was then drafted into the US Army---but that's another story, of course.

I returned to the Southern in 1972, this time based at Somerset. After another five months of work, I made a decision to change careers. Railroading was, and still is, my first love----but I didn't want to face a career of frequent relocation (with no choice in where I was going!). Also, I found that turning my hobby into a job effectively killed the hobby----so my life went in another direction.

At any rate, I rode F-units up and down the Rat Hole on rail trains, inspected track (between Palm and Oneida) using both a hyrail and a Fairmont motor car----and rode the cab of 229 from Guest Street to Atlanta once, after it was decreed that management trainees should use their cab pass to catch freights (or ride what few passenger trains were still running) rather than turn in mileage, or fly. Fine by me!

Even though my time there was just 11 months total, I have some great memories----and I still love to get over to my old stompin' grounds every few years to watch the trains roll through Cumberland Falls, Revilo or other places. I certainly miss the Southern----but today's NS is really amazing, particularly given the train frequency these days. The First District is humming with trains now, although it was fairly quiet some 40 years ago.

Ron Flanary

Michael Knight · June 21, 2011, 03:05:08 PM

Great to have you here, Ron! I've followed and admired your work closely over the years.

Nice to hear of your experiences on the CNO&TP, as well as your reflections of then and now. The newly combined crew districts and crew change point at Burnside has changed the drumbeat of operations on the CS, LS, and K&O lines.

The past few years have certainly ushered in a new era on the CNO&TP. The losing of southbound Ford auto traffic as well as the rerouting of Chicago-originating COFC to the Heartland Corridor route has changed the traffic mix some. Perhaps the loss of Oakdale as a crew change point and the newly-formed bottleneck at Burnside are the most dramatic changes, however.

bierbass · June 21, 2011, 04:45:04 PM

I'd like to second what Michael Knight said. I've enjoyed your photos and your insight into railroading esp. in Kentucky and Virginia. It's helped to understand a lot more about the craft of railroading around our region.

Dan

Badhorse79 · June 21, 2011, 05:24:21 PM

Hey Ron ! Nice to meet ya ! Hope to here alot of stories from ya !

Backyard · June 21, 2011, 10:22:43 PM

Welcome to the Norfolk Southern Discussion Forums Ron!

It's great to know that the person that wrote so many of my favorite books about my favorite subjects is now part of our Community.

Glad to hook you up, sure made my day!

Allen/Backyard

Ponce de Leon · June 22, 2011, 09:19:22 AM

Thanks for the nice notes, fellows. Actually, I was on the Rat Hole in mid-May while I was traveling further west for a meeting at Bowling Green. I did see the new crew change layout at Burnside. If anything, it makes photography immediately to the north and south more predictable, since most trains stop there to change crews. I found if you listened to the scanner pretty closely, you had a better chance to get to a particular spot in time to set up.

For what it's worth---Dave Oroszi, Scott Lindsay and I are working with Dale Sanders (former CTC Board owner/editor) on an all-color horizontal format book on the entire Southern Railway system. The publisher will be White River. Dave has been collecting quality images from a lot of great photographers over the past few years, and the scans are mostly done. Dave, Dale and I will spend a couple of days after Summerail in Cincinnati in August to start making shot selections. I have most of the scanned images on DVDs here, and I can tell you the material is outstanding. Most of the shots were taken in the '60s and '70s, but there are some earlier shots in the mix.

Book projects are long and drawn out affairs, but I'm confident this project will be done.

In the meantime----I've certainly enjoyed reading through earlier material on this site. The abandoned tunnels on the CNO&TP have always intrigued me, so that's some rather cool stuff. It's amazing how much the line of road has changed on the railroad since the first train ran on the Cincinnati Southern. I wonder what percentage of, say, the second district of the railroad is on its original right of way.

GP30Rider · June 22, 2011, 03:49:50 PM

Worked on the CNO&TP huh???? Pictures or it didn't happen!!! ;D (sorry....I couldn't resist)

Backyard · June 22, 2011, 06:28:59 PM

He said he was working on (another) book, I'm sure he'll turn up a few.

Meanwhile, Google Ron Flanery.

butch · June 22, 2011, 06:40:34 PM

Hey Ron, good to hear from you. Let me know if you want to tackle some of the abandoned tunnels.

GP30Rider · June 22, 2011, 10:06:54 PM

Quote from: Backyard on June 22, 2011, 06:28:59 PM
He said he was working on (another) book, I'm sure he'll turn up a few.

Meanwhile, Google Ron Flanery.

Ummm.........I have tons of his photos on a screensaver already............it was a joke...............and a selfish effort for more eye candy.

Ponce de Leon · June 22, 2011, 11:31:35 PM

One of my great regrets (trust me....there are many, by now!) is that I didn't do any photography during my working days on the Southern. I did during my Andover tenure, but not on the St. Louis line or the Rat Hole. I just felt it was taboo to drag out a 35mm while you were working, so I didn't.

The first feature article I ever had in Trains Magazine ran in 1978, I think, and was titled "Yes, I Did Want to Run a Railroad." It was just four pages of text----with no illustrations at all. Why? I didn't have any! It covered my brief career as a management trainee----or some of the more humorous and memorable parts of it.

But----I shot a lot of SR, L&N, Clinchfield, etc. in the '60s (mostly in black and white---which was pretty normal then)----and of course quite a bit since then.

This is one of only a few shots I took while I was working at Somerset:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=248923&nseq=0

or.....1966 at Lexington, KY:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=339910&nseq=2

and....I certainly should have shot more color back then, like this:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=182306&nseq=26

And.....one while I was working at Andover in the late '60s:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=266920&nseq=14

Plus.....I've been back a few times:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=363376&nseq=22

Yep....I've taken a few shots.

Backyard · June 23, 2011, 02:15:50 AM

I was aware of your work on the Interstate Railroad, In fact aren't you originally from Appalachia?

Having about half a dozen books about the L&N with your work, I never imagined your total involvement with the Southern Railway System.

Also, if you haven't already, be sure to check out the ATCS Monitor Group, we have a forum supporting that here. Some of the routes have a scanner feed on the Internet, I like those best.

Ponce de Leon · June 23, 2011, 09:05:16 AM

Yes, I grew up in Appalachia, although we moved just three miles down the road to Big Stone Gap in 1976, where we've been since then. True, the L&N was my primary passion growing up, but the Southern was close. I've written a few articles on SR subjects----three or four in the old CTC Board magazine come to mind----and a few others, including two for Classic Trains. I belong to the SRHA (Southern Railway Historical Association), and served on the board briefly several years ago (I dropped off because I just had too many irons in the fire at the time).

I will indeed check out the ATCS group. I know what that is, and how it works, but I haven't tried to check it out myself. My wife and I recently bought a second home (a small cottage) at Jonesborough, TN across from the tracks. While I've been waiting to see green PAs come through on the Tennesseean (hasn't happened yet), I have enjoyed watching the stacks, racks and general freights come through. This route is much busier with freight than it ever was in the past. I rode passenger trains on the line several times in the '60s. I've thought that ATCS would be a good way to give me a "heads up" on where the trains were. There are some neat photo spots in the area, but like anyone, I'd like to have some idea of what's coming and where it might be rather than sit on a rock for hours.

I miss the old days when there were open agencies and towers where you could stick your head in and ask "is anything close?" Of course that was often hit or miss, because sometimes you'd end up talking to some sore head who either didn't know, didn't care, or intentionally didn't tell you the truth. Most of the time, though, operators and agent/operators were very friendly and helpful.

E.M. Bell · June 23, 2011, 04:01:07 PM

Ron, Welcome to the madness that is Jreb...glad to have you with us. I think you will find a good group of sometimes rowdy, yet well behaved folks here, and in case you haven't figured it out just yet, Charlie likes to look at pictures

Your shot there at Woods (Somerset) hasn't changed much in the last 38 years (except for the power, which is a lot more bland now), but the area South of Burnside is not the same. A new depot, yard tracks, new control points and other assorted changes have drastically changed the look of the area. The big cut at Antioch has even been widened out to accommodate Two new yard tracks. In a year or so, the second district will cease to exist, and Danville will be a shell of its former self. Its certainly not the same RR I grew up shooting.

Ponce de Leon · June 23, 2011, 04:57:58 PM

I took a quick look at some of the "improvements" at Burnside last month, but I really need to come back and spend a day there (it's about three hours from where I live).

I have some fond memories of Danville as well. I always loved that "Queen and Crescent Route" tile mosaic in the entrance way of the door to the depot. Is it still there?

Alas, change in the railroad is a reality. While I miss the Rat Hole of the '70s, I also wish I had experienced it in the steam era, when Wimble smoke duct Pacifics hauled the likes of the Florida Sunbeam and Royal Palm through the tunnels and over the trestles of the Second District. I could have also gone nuts over a matched FT A-B-B-A set pulling upgrade over one of the trestles around Alpine.

Here's a Danville shot I took in 1968, a couple of years before I would be there in a working capacity:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=344387&nseq=1

lwjabo · June 23, 2011, 06:36:01 PM

Note the old SD35 is carring green flags. Means another section folowing on the same schedule. If it's on the CS the flags must have came out of Georgia or Louisville.

Beavis · June 23, 2011, 11:45:24 PM

Yes, the mosaic is still there.

Backyard · June 24, 2011, 02:28:53 AM

Hey Ron, you notice the remarks section has a note by Bernie Feltman, I have remarked & e-mailed with him, he's out of an area on the Western Railway of Alabama where it crossed the Southern Railway...he has been taking pics for about a thousand years down there, watch out for him, because he'll do you right!

...and then there is Tom Sink!

Ponce de Leon · June 24, 2011, 01:34:12 PM

Bernie and I correspond at times....and Tom Sink and I see each other quite often. Both Tom and I will be at Summerail in Cincinnati on August 13th. He has a show on C&O 614, and I did a show on Virginia railroading during the '90s and a little later. I'll also be handling the m.c. duties again this year, so you can hear a whole lot of Flanary b.s. in person.

cmherndon · June 24, 2011, 06:55:05 PM

Ron,

In the photo of NS 144 at Norwood, you mention that single track went from Norwood to Smith. Where exactly was CP Smith?

Ponce de Leon · June 24, 2011, 10:46:27 PM

Well----lots of things changed. We were initially going to publish it through Hundman, but then he folded and sold everything to White River. Kevin Eudaly agreed to publish it....but we've had to wait our "turn," since they've had Rio Grande and Western Pacific books, among others, ahead of us. However, when we sit down with Dale Sanders (who will do the graphics and layout and make the actual shot selections from the material Dave has assembled), we'll finally get rolling. My role is to write most of the captions, and the chapter text (broken into divisions). Scott Lindsay and I will tag team on that work, since he's a very capable writer and quite knowledgeable on the Southern and its operations.

I think I'm the designated "geezer" in the group who can deal with passenger trains, first generations diesels and stuff like that. I can certify there will be nary an NS diesel to be seen, if I can help it (no disrespect to my old management trainee buddy, Wick Moorman and his railroad, though!).

So---that's why it's taken so long. Book projects can be an agonizing process.

Dale is more interested in a photo's visual appeal rather than "content," so you can assume the book will be very "pretty."

beal99 · July 05, 2011, 06:43:49 PM

Hi Ron:

Always enjoy seeing your Appalachia stuff on RP and other places, welcome to the forum!

Ponce de Leon · July 08, 2011, 05:47:46 PM

I overlooked the question regarding the location for Smith, which was the south end of double track from Kings Mountain when I was working on the Rat Hole in '70 and '72. Smith was at milepost 145. Double track began again at Norwood, MP 154.7. The track that was built back after then would be number 2.