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Author Topic: CNO&TP Rathole Division  (Read 2848 times)
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JeffersonClark
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« on: August 08, 2012, 05:10:49 PM »

I'm not a "railroad guy". I'm a part time cartographer with the Wikimapia site.
Recently I was asked to help clean up "The South" by some other members.
In the process I happened upon the CNO&TP line and the associated tunnels.
I'd worked on tunnel systems before (in IN and Northern KY) so I mapped what I could
with the information available. A lot of the info came from this site.

However, I ran into a lot of problems. Some of the available imagery is not up to date.
I'm holding off on mapping those stretches until they are updated.
I found a few USGS maps that have conflicting information. (tunnel #1)
There is also a lot of conflicting information regarding tunnel length. (3 for King's Mountain)

So I've come here to get some feedback on the subject.
You get an updated map and I get information to keep it accurate.
Feedback is welcome on the old imagery but I won't update it until it's changed.

The Rathole Division begins here > http://wikimapia.org/#lat=37.8337587&lon=-84.6870436&z=15&l=0&m=b&search=tunnel
(even though it isn't technically part of the division)
and ends here > http://wikimapia.org/#lat=35.9303376&lon=-84.5630203&z=15&l=0&m=b&search=tunnel
(also not  technically part of the division)  

I think that about covers it.  Smiley


« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 05:13:25 PM by JeffersonClark » Logged
E.M. Bell
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« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2012, 05:59:24 PM »

Welcome to the board..I think you just might find some of the answers you are looking for. We are privileged to have one of the foremost experts on the "vintage" CNO&TP as a member, plus a few other folks with some great information.

Paging Mr. Adkins.....>
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butch
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« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2012, 09:37:06 PM »

Welcome!

If you haven't seen the August 1963 Ties article "90 Years to Daylight", Tom Daspit has a scanned copy of it on his website.  http://southern.railfan.net/

Looking at your maps:

I'll do the Rathole tunnels in KY tonight and TN tomorrow,

Tunnel 1 looks ok

Tunnel 2 you show curved but it is straight.  http://msrmaps.com/image.aspx?T=2&S=11&Z=16&X=1759&Y=10348&W=3&qs=%7ckings+mountain%7cky%7c

Tunnel 3 is wrong, but Tunnel 4 is close.  I'll find you something that shows their locations

Tunnel 5 looks ok

Tunnel 6's position looks close

Tunnel's 7-8-9 all look long, 7 has a slight curve near the north end, 8 is a gentle curve and 9 has a curve, but not like the map

Tunnel 10's old location is too far north

Tunnel 11 is too far south

Tunnel 12 looks ok

Here is a topo map view that show's T5 through T12 except that T6 and T10 were daylighted right after the turn of the century-I've marked the ridges where they were located   http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref/BurnsideTopo.jpg
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 09:49:54 PM by butch » Logged

Butch Adkins
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Railroad Tunnel hunting in Kentucky
JeffersonClark
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« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2012, 09:35:20 AM »

Ah! Just the person I was hoping would drop by.  
(I didn't equate "Mr. Adkins" with Butch)
I got most of my lengths from your site. ***

Made revisions:

#1 That's one that had conflicting info. When I found the 500ft length I used the 1984 topo.

#2 Well duh! I'm not sure why I didn't change that. I have the location. It sux to get old! That's old imagery so it isn't perfect yet. I'll check the length when I redo it. I've found 3984ft, 3992ft & 4652ft. I get a measurement of 4224ft now.

#3 No idea. None of my source imagery is good at that location. Topos are about the same.

#4 Same as #3 except I did manage to pinpoint the south portal.

#5

#6 Shows up really well in terrain map. If the imagery is synced right it should be good.

#7 I think I've fixed it. Yeah way too long.  

#8 Shortened and eased curve.

#9 This should be fixed now. Used old b&w aerial.  

#10  Moved south to next deep cut still not sure.

#11 I believe that I located the south portal and the length looks about right.
Should be close.  

#12 Yeah that one was pretty easy lots of associated features.  

All for now.

*** I don't know if you're aware of it but a lot of the links on your site are dead.
I saw that it was Insight. Same here. Mine recently changed to Time Warner.
Last week they lost my entire website. Spent the last week trying to redo it.

« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 01:16:54 PM by JeffersonClark » Logged
JeffersonClark
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« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2012, 12:53:27 PM »

Just an aside.
Does anyone know if the wooden beamed tunnel
on the Franklin Industries Railroad line has a name?
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butch
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« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2012, 09:24:37 PM »

Crazy day-didn't get to do anything.  I'll try to get 3/4 and TN tomorrow or the weekend.

Insight deleted a bunch of my stuff a couple of years ago and I never took the time to put it back because I was using facebook for new pix and I didn't think anyone knew about the old pages anyway.   Smiley
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Butch Adkins
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JeffersonClark
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« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2012, 10:36:16 AM »

There's no rush.  I might have 3 & 4 now. Someone here posted some maps
from the Perry-Castaneda Map Collection @ University of Texas.
That was one of the  primary sources I used for historic map work many years ago.
I'd exhausted the materials they had on file and haven't checked back there
in over ten years. Seems that they've added a lot since then. (thanks nsgelocos)

I don't trust the old topos as much as I used to. Ran into problems with both
ends. (#1 & #27) The topography doesn't line up with the newer versions.

Anyway, I spliced together two (1928&1929) at Burnside KY.  Gives a
pretty good location even though this is one place where the topography
actually has changed due to Lake Cumberland. 

It's still old imagery in that location so close works for the time being.


* Burnside-1928:29.jpg (152.81 KB, 345x250 - viewed 235 times.)
« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 10:50:52 AM by JeffersonClark » Logged
butch
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« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2012, 03:27:44 PM »

This is an awesome find.  The locations are good; T3's curve is a bit off and T4 has more curvature, but they're basically correct.
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Butch Adkins
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JeffersonClark
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« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2012, 03:57:09 PM »

Thank you. It was actually nsgelocos' find. I just played with it.

I just realized that I may be confusing some here by using the term "old imagery".
At Wikimapia we use imported Google imagery. Google updates these whenever possible.
New imagery is recent and very detailed. What I call "semi-new imagery" is a couple of years old
but still detailed enough for map updates. (it's usually one view away from maximum resolution)
The "old imagery" is outdated, cloudy and past a certain resolution gives the standard empty
blocks with "Sorry, we have no imagery here" label. The Burnside area is a good example of this.
Both "new" and "old" cut across the area at the Cumberland River.
 I used to map all of these areas but stopped doing so on the old stuff. When they are updated the
imagery shifts and the mapping is offset. They've recently added a tool to shift the map sections
but it doesn't work. It can only make linear shifts and very few updates are straight linear shifts.
I was told that I'd just have to remap it then. Yeah ... right.    Angry
So now I don't attempt to map anything that is in the "old imagery".  I can wait.


« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 03:59:17 PM by JeffersonClark » Logged
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« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2012, 08:47:14 PM »

OK, I'm back.  T13-14 on your map should be just below Helenwood-see this map http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref/T13-14.jpg.

T15 & T16 look pretty decent.

T17 is a little bit futher closer to the US27 bridge.

T18 is in the right place but might extend a bit further south.

T19 & T20 look good.

T21 shaded the right side of the cut just north of the Lancing highway bridge

T22 & T23 are close, but check this map http://msrmaps.com/image.aspx?T=2&S=11&Z=16&X=1780&Y=9988&W=3&qs=%7chelenwood%7ctn%7c

T24 & T25 look good

T26 is more like this http://msrmaps.com/image.aspx?T=2&S=11&Z=16&X=1799&Y=9960&W=3&qs=%7chelenwood%7ctn%7c

The T27 location is also a bit off, look at this map  http://msrmaps.com/image.aspx?T=2&S=11&Z=16&X=1799&Y=9946&W=3&qs=%7chelenwood%7ctn%7c  
The north portal was 7 o'clock to where it says St Andrews.  The south portal was at the head of the cut just left of where is says Emory.


Hope this helps.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2012, 08:50:11 PM by butch » Logged

Butch Adkins
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JeffersonClark
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« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2012, 04:12:14 PM »

OK, I'm back.  T13-14 on your map should be just below Helenwood-see this map http://home.insightbb.com/~heyref/T13-14.jpg.
Having real problems with these. See below.
Quote
T15 & T16 look pretty decent.

I disagree with you (and myself  Grin) on 15. The 1893 topo shows it longer. I amended it but I'm still not sure.
Quote
T17 is a little bit futher closer to the US27 bridge.

Where the highway passes over the rail?
Quote
T18 is in the right place but might extend a bit further south.

The only lengths I have are the ones from your old website, 1-12 and one other.
(tunnel 27 @ 1,941 Ft.) I'd love to have more if anyone has them.
Quote
T19 & T20 look good.

T21 shaded the right side of the cut just north of the Lancing highway bridge

T22 & T23 are close, but check this map http://msrmaps.com/image.aspx?T=2&S=11&Z=16&X=1780&Y=9988&W=3&qs=%7chelenwood%7ctn%7c

T24 & T25 look good

T26 is more like this http://msrmaps.com/image.aspx?T=2&S=11&Z=16&X=1799&Y=9960&W=3&qs=%7chelenwood%7ctn%7c

The T27 location is also a bit off, look at this map  http://msrmaps.com/image.aspx?T=2&S=11&Z=16&X=1799&Y=9946&W=3&qs=%7chelenwood%7ctn%7c  
The north portal was 7 o'clock to where it says St Andrews.  The south portal was at the head of the cut just left of where is says Emory.
I relocated 27 to fit a compromise between your map and the 1891 topo.
I'll be revisiting 2-4 & 19-27 when new imagery is available, so close is good for now.

Now ... about 13 & 14. I moved them up, close to the points that you showed.
I've seen your pics of the location. (especially the old bridge pier)
The imagery is good there but I can't locate them exactly. (lengths would help a lot here)
Everywhere that there is a likely location (as over creeks and such) I can clearly see the
rail bed and old tracks. (as here / http://wikimapia.org/#lat=36.410318&lon=-84.5470826&z=20&l=0&m=s&search=tunnel)

You've helped a great deal. Thanks.  Smiley
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« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2012, 12:33:46 PM »

On T13-T14, don't be misled by the appearance of the second track in the photos.  The original grade through the tunnels was a bit to the west of the current tracks.  After 90 years of abandonment, it's hard to find much of the old grade.

On T17, I'm not sure of the exact location because much of the original tunnel was removed when the cut was built-I'd guess around 300 ft is left.  But looking at the oldest topo, I would guess the south portal was just a bit short of where the bridge is now.

And here are the tunnel lengths:

CNO&TP Tunnel  1   500 ft.
CNO&TP Tunnel  2   3984 ft.
CNO&TP Tunnel  3   1,167 ft.
CNO&TP Tunnel  4   1,165 ft.
CNO&TP Tunnel  5   882 ft.
CNO&TP Tunnel  6   189 ft.
CNO&TP Tunnel  7   1,160 ft.
CNO&TP Tunnel  8   503 ft.
CNO&TP Tunnel  9   1,277 ft.
CNO&TP Tunnel  10   270 ft.
CNO&TP Tunnel  11   465 ft.
CNO&TP Tunnel  12   380 ft.
CNO&TP Rathole 13    947 ft.
CNO&TP Rathole 14   334 ft.
CNO&TP Rathole 15   2533 ft.
CNO&TP Rathole 16   1083 ft.
CNO&TP Rathole 17   1262 ft.
CNO&TP Rathole 18   650 ft.
CNO&TP Rathole 19   408 ft.
CNO&TP Rathole 20   600 ft.
CNO&TP Rathole 21   264 ft.
CNO&TP Rathole 22   699 ft.
CNO&TP Rathole 23   846 ft.
CNO&TP Rathole 24   2031 ft.
CNO&TP Rathole 25   238 ft.
CNO&TP Rathole 26   1667 ft.
CNO&TP Rathole 27   1941 ft.
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Butch Adkins
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« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2012, 03:31:51 PM »

Tunnel 17's cut around it was also widened for double track sometime in the 60s or 70s. I would say that tunnel 17 was in tact until they widened the cut. My uncle Mark was there when they widened it and said a fault in the cut on the tunnel side cause a house sized boulder to fall onto the track during the blasting process.
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Aaron Beaubien
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JeffersonClark
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« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2012, 02:11:30 PM »

Thanks guys. This has been a big help. Especially the lengths.
I think that Robbins (15) is exact now. And I'm closer on a few others.
I've tweaked everything I can 'till new imagery comes out. 

One last request. I don't know when I'll get to it but there
are a lot of original photos on this (and connected) sites.
I'd like your permission to post (and when needed modify)
some of these to the photo section of the tunnels' descriptions. 
Just post below if you'll allow it. (sorry ... there's no place to give photo credit)    Sad

Thanks again. This has been frustrating and fun.  Cheesy
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« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2012, 08:47:48 PM »

Let's talk when you get that far.
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Butch Adkins
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Railroad Tunnel hunting in Kentucky
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